Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:50 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:29 pm Karate ka here.

Nidan Japanese goju ryu karate do seiwa kai lineage Yamaguchi ha.

I'm also ranked In japan karate federation go ju kai.

Favourite Kata are saipai, seiunchin' suparunpai.

Also mudansha in musu jekiden eisshin ryu iaido. Favourite Kata oikaze'" tsuki ate

Been training since I was nine. But karate is my way.

Now being Deaf and going blind Kata has taken on deeper meaning which is hard to explain with words. I'm finding myself being one with Kata more. And less cerebral.

First encountered zen via karate. First encountered Nichiren via iado
Cool, I'm an Okinawan Goju Ryu sandan, Shobu Shoreikan lineage originally. About 20 years into doing that and 10 plus in other stuff including other Karate. My favorite is Kururunfa, mostly. I really started getting into the meditative part of Kata into my 40's. It's really a surprisingly benefit, I've actually found that Kata prior to shamatha meditation increases my ability. I also was introduced to Buddhism through Karate, we always had the obligatory picture of Bodhidharma on the shomen wall-thingy. I also found the the mental states cultivated through Karate have helped me get through the hardest part of boxing. I can't imagine being able to do it at 44 without my Karate training.

I'm biased but as far as an emotionally healthy martial arts goes, I think traditional Karate is one of the best people can pursue. it's also built to age with you, and so many teachers stay exceptionally healthy into old age. Now, if you are more interested in the "martial' but the Karate world has some issues IMO, but as a lifetime martial arts pursuit, in a holistic sense I think it's tops.
Yes kururunfa is a great Kata. it was a close call between saipai and kururunfa for my list.

I like all our Kata. Japanese goju moves a bit differently then Okinawan.

I should mention sanchin and tensho. early on I got into the habit of sanchin to greet the morning sun and tensho to greet the moon. I find the Kata sanchin and tensho really good for meditation particularly when combined in sanchin-tensho combined Kata which isn't of the traditional 12 Kata of goju but combining the two works well

There is a rare style of goju which is done almost entirely in ju. And looks very taichi like. Rare style so haven't actually experienced it seito goju Ryu.
Interesting. My main Karate teacher actually wrote a book on Sanchin, so I have spent a bunch of time on it. It is essentially martial qigong, in my opinion. I think the overly-hard way of doing it you often see is not great, but a soft version would be unusual, I'll poke around and see what I can find.
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Re: Topic: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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Thread moved from Mahayana Buddhism.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by omph »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:13 pm I practice in a family lineage of martial arts called Vo Binh Dinh, passed down from my father. It is considered to be a Buddhist martial art, with swordsmanship and staff work as the primary weapons. Both of these play into Vietnamese Thien, as much of our qigong lineages derive from sword and staff forms, so it's definitely useful in that regard--manipulating the bodily energies, learning proper posture and bodily awareness. And, as mentioned, the likelihood of actually having to engage in swordsmanship or staff fighting is probably quite low. There is open hand fighting, and it ends up looking like sanshou in actual combat, but in general, I don't think it's particularly useful for actual combat.
Thank you so much for the information. I will research Vo Binh Dihn. It sounds really interesting. The reason I became interested in sticks in the first place was after learning a Vietnamese stick-routine monks use for stretching (so I'm told). I do them almost everyday. I think using a stick offers new ways to align your body and shift the weigh/balance/spinning. I'd always wondered if these exercises were rooted in a marital art. Maybe they do, and maybe they are Vo Binh Dinh.

By they way - do you happen to know about the martial-art Buddhist nuns in Nepal? Supposedly someone from Vietnam was the person who trained them. I don't who that person was, or what it was he/she taught.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by omph »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:13 pm

If you like sticks find a kabudo dojo or a dojo that offers kabudo an Okinawan art you will learn Tonfa, Bo, nunchucks, Sai and kama and more

Or

Kali, escrima, Arnis, which is stick focused (Philippino)

If you want contact and like sticks, try kendo. (Japanese)

Akido also uses boken. (Wooden sword) and of course they have allot of falling and rolling but my experience with akido I found it spiritually focused) and non competitive
Which is an asset
My gosh! Thanks for the great list!
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Shotenzenjin »

omph wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:16 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:13 pm

If you like sticks find a kabudo dojo or a dojo that offers kabudo an Okinawan art you will learn Tonfa, Bo, nunchucks, Sai and kama and more

Or

Kali, escrima, Arnis, which is stick focused (Philippino)

If you want contact and like sticks, try kendo. (Japanese)

Akido also uses boken. (Wooden sword) and of course they have allot of falling and rolling but my experience with akido I found it spiritually focused) and non competitive
Which is an asset
My gosh! Thanks for the great list!
Your welcome
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Re: Topic: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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I'd echo a few of the points made:
Traditional martial arts were created for an historical time and culture and specific fighting needs - one sword, two sword, dagger, horseback, armour etc.
More modern fighting arts have tried to select the 'best bits' which may work, after a LOT of practice, on the street.

It is always interesting to expose weaknesses and I used to experience this often at a local gym where the instructors were all also martial arts instructors, as were a few of the customers. So we'd go and play in the hall - capoeira versus karate, aikido versus MMA etc. It was a laugh but also showed just how narrowly we train. Bring in a Bowie knife, lock knife or baseball bat and suddenly some of the arts became useless, take a fight to the ground and other arts had no useful skills.

In the UK it is useful to have a lot of door staff involved, with real experience of many fist fights, knife and bottle attacks. I've not come across one that can beat an acid or petrol attack yet, but martial arts may develop the awareness to see it coming. I suspect much of what they dealt with would simply have been a shooting in other countries.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you want fighting skills - be flexible, test techniques, keep what works and practice with discipline and you may not get killed in a fight. I don't think there is one martial art with all the answers.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that if you want spiritual development - be flexible, test techniques, keep what works and practice with discipline and you may find something which enhances your life. I don't think there is one religion with all the answers.

Or take up Dzogchen ................. :rolling:
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Re: Topic: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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omph wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:54 pm I’m kind of stuck there. Trying to imagine hitting someone in the groin seem like a hard thing to combine with what the monk said.
My perspective on this comes from practising Tai Chi.

Explaining where and how to hit, explains where and how your intention should focus and how the energy in the body should move.
Now you could do that because you want to know where and how to hit, or you could do that because you want to work with the focus, the intention and energy.

I remember some professional dancers who came to learn Tai Chi. Most of them had the same problem - they hyperextended all the time because that was the way they had learned to move, and they were often quite rigid and tense. Letting them feel how that was a problem through working on applications with someone was a lot easier than debating and trying to explain.
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Re: Topic: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Shaku Kenshin »

I train in two historical Japanese sword schools Kashima shinden jikishinkage ryu and Muso jikiden eishin ryu.
In my twenties and early thirties I trained mainly in Thaiboxing, Boxing and some Judo. I found that these combat sports can potentially nurture a certain aggresion during training and competitions, but afterwards I was always very relaxed and calm. For some people, who have this aggressiveness already in them, to which I wouldn't count myself, these sports can be a very healthy way to let it out. But for you this might not be the best match.

The mental training of traditional martial arts, especially weapon based martial arts, can be very beneficial for Buddhist practice in my opinion. To function efficiently in a life or death situation, where these arts have their roots, you need to let go of your ego, your fears, and your self. Japanese sword masters often used Buddhist terms like fudoshin or mushin to describe this mindset. Therefore, although nobody is running around with a sword nowadays and surely nobody wants to harm someone with a sword, there are still many people practicing these arts for mental training. But in order to cultivate this mindset through martial arts, you cannot set aside the martial part. Otherwise it won't be any different from gymnastics or dancing.

If you don't want to have anything to do with the martial part, that's completely ok. In that case it might be better to practice something like Yoga or Qi gong, as others have already suggested.

Can you tell us why you are interested in martial arts, if you don't like the martial part of it? If we understand this better, we might be able to give you better suggestions.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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omph wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:09 pm That's interesting. Fencing is actually a good example of how one might approach the martial arts. I'd never thought of that. The chances of you running into a situation where you'd really need to pull out a sword are minuscule. Do you find that your experience goes beyond the physical skills? For example - has your viewpoint or inner awareness changed (outside of the sword fighting time)? I've heard heard people say martial arts changed their life (on podcast interviews) and it's unclear to me whether martial arts offers something quite different than a regular sport (baseball, etc) - because from the outside - it seems really different.
Fencing of course does not have its roots in Eastern culture but in Western chilvary. I believe it is only loosely considered a martial art in the conventional sense. The fencer has to have absolute focus in the moment and have great awareness. It is also a highly respectful sport; the word of the referee is final and cannot be debated. The two fencers salute each other and the referee before and after each bout. If you practise mindfulness in either a secular or "religious" sense, you would find fencing to be a "mindful" sport. I do not associate it all with violence and I find it to be complimentary and consistent with most people's views on this forum. Hope that is helpful! Sorry for not responding sooner.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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One thing that helped me a lot with this question is to ask the question "what is violence"?

I've noticed that some people who have been lucky enough not to grow up around it (most of my well to do liberal friends have never been in a fight, as an example, much less anything worse) tend to reduce violence and aggression simply to physical acts, and to them, it's all just kinda yucky. The physical acts tend to be the result of certain relationships, a reaction to causes and conditions. The acts themselves reflect much larger arcs and patterns of thought and behavior.

It's one thing to avoid these sorts of explorations because the subject simply doesn't interest us, and quite another to wash our hands of it simply because it's somehow...unclean or unspiritual. Doing that is just as bad as dismissing the question on the other end - saying that martial arts training never has negative consequences, which is also untrue.

Martial arts during peaceful times (which these are, btw, at least compared to the historical circumstances that generated many arts, and in terms of interpersonal violence) tend to generate these kinds of questions about spirituality in martial arts. There are other times in history where (minus being aristocracy or something) we would not even have this discussion, we would be learning stuff with the idea that we might have to use it, and the question of whether or not it would be harmful to us spiritually would be a less commonly asked one. Some of us wouldn't even have the luxury of approaching the arts that way, though of course some would, usually based on their class/caste.

So it is an interesting thought experiment to put oneself in the position of someone who was learning martial arts purely for self-protection, thinking that they would likely use it, perhaps with serious consequences should their training fail. Think about others in that position too, how did it effect them spiritually? For sure, the answer is a complex one, and it could go in any number of directions.

Not making any particular argument, only trying to contextualize modern martial arts training. we have a huge buffet of things to choose from, and most of us don't need the skills...it's a very different situation than the one that created most of these arts. One of the reasons I teach martial arts -as- martial arts is that I consider it my due diligence to remember that the origins of my art in particular are civilian self defense. There are lots of other benefits you can get from it, but I personally do not feel comfortable (for instance) trying to turn my class into primarily a fitness class or something similar, because to me maintaining the integrity of the art's purpose is important to me, and to the longevity of the art.

This is also an exercise in impermanence - understanding that pursuing the martial arts in this particular time and place is it's own deal, with it's own set of benefits and foibles. Even in the 30 or so years I've been doing stuff, the landscape has changed immensely, and my own take has changed as well.

P.S>:

Writing this made me remember, a martial arts friend of mine years ago wrote a very interesting book on this subject called When Buddhists Attack: The Curious Relationships Between Zen and the Martial Arts

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/134 ... sts-attack

I highly recommend it, it's the only book I've read on the subject that doesn't devolve into platitudes and silliness, and treats the subject with the respect it deserves, it's a good book, though fairly introductory in it's treatment of Buddhism.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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I was first introduced to zen through karate as a teenager. I will say, it all depends on the teacher. If your teacher is a deeply spiritual practitioner, these things will be transmitted to you and the art will help your spiritual growth. If there is no spirituality in the dojo, it's just that. It can be quite difficult to bring your own spirituality into an environment devoid of it, especially when just starting out.

Often the martial arts teachers will not be practicing spirituality deeply, maybe they dabble... It is rare to find a martial arts master who seeks enlightenment. Often spiritual views of martial artists can be pretty watered down. In such a case, spiritual seekers interested in the martial arts may find spiritual teachers to give substance and depth to their martial arts.

I was searching for enlightenment through martial arts for years, and found almost no one who could teach this path. I travelled around the world to taiwan looking for enlightened masters of the martial arts, and there was no one. Maybe there would be some in Japan, where martial arts are more deeply tied with zen.

But as I mentioned before, often martial artists interested in both buddhism and martial arts will have teachers for martial arts and teachers for buddhism, integrating the teachings and forging their own path. Very rare for it to come together from the same teacher.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I felt zen and karate definitely went hand in hand. I'm sure the same is true of all japanese martial arts. In karate, we would challenge our spirits by training kata in the rain, practicing our basic techniques thousands of times and pushing through exhaustion with sharp clarity of mind. We would condition our bodies and zen helped let go of the pain. Something about the simplicity of it all was very conducive for zen.

Karate became a zen ritual, training the body and mind. Something about the ritual forms of japanese martial arts also helped. Bowing to shinzen as you enter and exit the dojo floor, lining up in seiza before the shinzen for zazen. The clack of sticks to signal a change, it would wake up the mind. Also the cleanliness aspect, we called it soji. Taking off shoes as we enter the dojo space, the traditional japenese way of students pushing towels up and down the floor to clean after class, folding our gi in a traditional way. All these things are somewhat like a monastic experience.

The character of the dojo is very much colored by the students and teachers there. In our dojo we were taught to leave our mundane worries at the door, and when we enter the dojo we were there to train.

There's a book I would highly recommend for people interested in zen and martial arts. It's called "Zen and the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Shaku Kenshin »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:40 pm
I was searching for enlightenment through martial arts for years, and found almost no one who could teach this path. I travelled around the world to taiwan looking for enlightened masters of the martial arts, and there was no one. Maybe there would be some in Japan, where martial arts are more deeply tied with zen.
I am afraid you would be disappointed if you would come to Japan with these expectations. For most martial art practitioners in Japan it is just a hobby they do once or twice a week somewhere in a municipal sports hall. Not too different from how it is done in Western countries.

Also, the ties between Japanese martial arts and zen, although definitely existent, are often overestimated. Partly because of people like Eugen Herrigel, who wrote the famous book Zen in the Art of Archery. Herrigel learned bowmanship from Awa Kenzo and interpreted the spiritual parts of his teachings as Zen, although Awa has never practiced Zen himself.

It is true that there are Zen practitioners who practice martial arts as part of their Zen training, but most Japanese martial arts have no inherent connection to Zen.

Even the historical martial arts, of which some have survived until this day, don't have necessarily a connection to Zen. One of the oldest swords schools in Japan that still exists is the Katori Shinto Ryu. This school has much more influence from Shingon Buddhism than from Zen. I myself train in Kashima shinden jikishinkage ryu, which is mainly influenced by Shinto and Neo-Confucianist ideas.

But these historical martial arts are a very small minority and their focus is usually on combat effectiveness, not enlightenment. Most people train in newer martial arts like Judo or Japanese Karate which are mainly practised as modern sports, especially by younger people.

I have lived and trained in Japan for quite a few years now. If you want to find an enlightened teacher, you should look for someone teaching Buddhism, not martial arts.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Shaku Kenshin »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:56 pm
There's a book I would highly recommend for people interested in zen and martial arts. It's called "Zen and the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.
I recommend you to read this article if you are interested. Herrigel did a lot of misinterpretation.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... TMB-f7yIAL
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Shaku Kenshin wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:34 am
I have lived and trained in Japan for quite a few years now. If you want to find an enlightened teacher, you should look for someone teaching Buddhism, not martial arts.
True!

I have a friend in seattle who teaches aikido and karate who told me there are a few interesting schools in japan if you know where to go... One karate dojo that use soft skills as in the chinese internal arts. One aikido master who supposedly discovered how to unite heaven and earth in his body and freeze a person's nervous system by touching them in the right way. And a couple others he described as high level martial arts, bordering on spiritual. Another aikido teacher of mine mentioned an aikido dojo in nara that is also a zendo.

In my pursuit of spiritual martial arts, I found a couple leads that were aligned with buddhism I felt. The first is yiquan, which is a zhanzhuang (standing qigong) system of martial arts created by a master who had deep insight into ch'an (zen) and it influenced his system. I think there are even yiquan (i-chuan) schools in japan, if you're there.

Another lead is peter ralston (he wrote a great book called The Principles of Effortless Power). A student of his once told me that he embodies a very empty quality. He may or may not be pure dharma, but he might be closely aligned.

Another idea is Adam Mizner, who is a powerful taiji master who spent a lot of time meditating with a teacher in the Thai Forest Tradition. His buddhist practice really informs his taiji path. He has some interesting interviews on youtube.

Bruce Frantzis says that the highest level of the Dao is the same essence as dzogchen. I'm not sure what to make of that... Maybe, who knows. Many people love his stuff, but many people also take bruce frantzis with a grain of salt. I did find it interesting though that his daoist master was said to have been enlightened in the tiantai buddhist tradition when he was young, before going into the mountains and being trained by daoist hermits.

The founder of chung tai mountain in Taiwan (ch'an) practiced baguazhang for an hour each day. He got a local kungfu master to teach his nuns kungfu to keep them healthy and strong. The Gyalwang Drukpa also has his kungfu nuns in Nepal.

There is also an interesting teacher in Taipei named Huai Hsiang Wang who made a way called Prana Dynamics. Based on his family lineage of internal martial arts, he decided to walk away from the fighting aspects and use qi practices for spiritual cultivation. He is of nonduality persuasion, influenced by advaita vedanta and chan.

Jet Li is also buddhist (although he doesn't teach). He is a student of Master Sheng Yen and various tibetan masters.

I personally had an internal martial arts teacher in Cleveland (who taught principles from taiji, bagua and xingyi with training methods and strategy from western styles like bjj, boxing and silat). I think he is a zen master, although he mastered his mind not through zen forms such as koan but by watching his mind. He told me that he wandered into the mountains during the korean war, where he found monks who taught him meditation. He used one technique alone for twelve years, after which he told us he no longer had any discursive thoughts.

But I agree with Shaku Kenshin. If you want to study Dharma, best to learn with an authentic (and qualified) buddhist master. This is where to find pure transmission.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I had a student this last year (before Covid) who was visiting from Japan. She was awesome and even sent me a stamp with my name and organization;). I felt weird counting in Japanese at first but apparently my Japanese pronunciation is not that bad. It additionally reminded me that coming from a certain country means nothing in terms of exposure to martial arts, she was a great student. I was under the impression there was Judo in schools in Japan, according to her this is rare? I also have lots of friends who have spent time training in Okinawa and Japan long term. It's fun to do the tourist thing I think, but none of them learned anything that can't be learned elsewhere. The same is true in my more minimal exposure to Chinese internal arts.

Almost uniformly my experiences lead me to believe that good martial arts training is rare everywhere. If someone is looking for good training they need to figure out what they want and hit the pavement (metaphorically).

Frankly, most martial arts students do not even know what they want in the first place, so part of the job of an honest teacher is to help them figure this out. For my money one of the best places for martial arts is probably the UK, but it is just a hunch.

Anyway, you do not need to train in something exotic, nor somewhere exotic to cultivate spiritual benefit from martial arts practice.

If you are a solid meditator with a good teacher you will get the spiritual benefit of the discipline, concentration and somatic work in martial arts from anything that is well taught and healthy. I spent the time previous to our new lockdown doing Boxing for about five months, trying to go three days a week. It is every bit as much a "tradition" as martial arts which call themselves traditional, and very much reminded me of a traditional Karate dojo in many ways.
Another idea is Adam Mizner, who is a powerful taiji master who spent a lot of time meditating with a teacher in the Thai Forest Tradition. His buddhist practice really informs his taiji path. He has some interesting interviews on youtube.
I've seen some questionable videos of this guy, caveat emptor.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:11 am
Another idea is Adam Mizner, who is a powerful taiji master who spent a lot of time meditating with a teacher in the Thai Forest Tradition. His buddhist practice really informs his taiji path. He has some interesting interviews on youtube.
I've seen some questionable videos of this guy, caveat emptor.
He's controversial in martial arts circles, mostly for his videos on fajin. (I assume that's what you're talking about) There are sometimes seemingly endless discussions about him in martial arts circles... I'm not one to say one way or the other about his skill as I've never met him or felt his technique. But I appreciate how he incorporates dharma in taiji training. He has real lineage in the taiji side and the buddhist side, and very good discernment to know what is what. Anyway, my point in including him is that he's a well known martial arts teacher who brings dharma into is art and teaching.

All the other things your saying, I very much agree.
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Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:19 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:11 am
Another idea is Adam Mizner, who is a powerful taiji master who spent a lot of time meditating with a teacher in the Thai Forest Tradition. His buddhist practice really informs his taiji path. He has some interesting interviews on youtube.
I've seen some questionable videos of this guy, caveat emptor.
He's controversial in martial arts circles, mostly for his videos on fajin. (I assume that's what you're talking about) There are sometimes seemingly endless discussions about him in martial arts circles... I'm not one to say one way or the other about his skill as I've never met him or felt his technique. But I appreciate how he incorporates dharma in taiji training. He has real lineage in the taiji side and the buddhist side, and very good discernment to know what is what. Anyway, my point in including him is that he's a well known martial arts teacher who brings dharma into is art and teaching.

All the other things your saying, I very much agree.
I have 30 years and some change in the arts. I've met people who can do crazy stuff, I can do a couple parlor tricks myself...but that's what they are, fun ways to demo physical principles, I can tell when they are BS just based on compliance from students, and when someone actually has the body mechanics to do it. Some of the stuff in his videos is just nonsense, and transparently so. He does look to have produced some decent students here and there, but some of the videos I've seen made me cringe. I also watched a couple where even his basic posture is off. This is not something Taiji specific either, pretty much all martial arts teach you to round the spine and root in a certain way at times, even though they go about it differently.



Personally, this video is enough to make the guy questionable (and I'm being generous here) in my eyes, ymmv. Similarly, I've felt good internal people who can really throw you far and disrupt when pushing hands, etc., and a lot of his push hands videos just look like student compliance to me, rather than strong Taiji. Some of his student have nice videos of actual practice, this guy's clearly had other training. So, apparently someone gets something out of it:



Lineage means little if someone isn't being honest about what they are doing, marketing is one thing, but IMO a lot of his stuff does not pass the smell test. I mean, people can draw their own conclusions, but like I said, caveat emptor.

The thing is that Taiji is about much more than martial aspects naturally. That of course is fine, and is as it should be, Taiji is a *deep* practice. However, confusing the philosophical/energetic bit with martial effectiveness is an ethical liability when it is being used to make money, from my point of view.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
SilenceMonkey
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Martial Arts & Buddhist Practice?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Haha, you win :namaste:
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