Giving Up Masturbation

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Toenail
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm
Toenail wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:03 pm

This is immensely silly. The Sakya masters ridicule the idea that there is any inherent benefit to conserving semen, in relation to the misconception that some people have that the tantric vow of never giving up jasmine-like bodhicitta refers to semen.

Tibetan and Ayurvedic doctors understand that semen is a waste product. Geez. How many times to we have to go through this?
There is a known hyped teacher that tells students to eat their semen after masturbation. This is rubbish and has no benefit? I dont do this btw, LOL.
Who is this person so we can laugh at them?

I mean, there is some protein in semen, but I'd rather eat an oyster.
It is just hearsay. It means I heard it from an at that time close student of his. So technically I did not hear it from him. I do not want to misrepresent what he said or claim I heard it directly from him if I did not. His name sounds similar to some kind of chinese cabbage.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm
Toenail wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:15 pm

There is a known hyped teacher that tells students to eat their semen after masturbation. This is rubbish and has no benefit? I dont do this btw, LOL.
Who is this person so we can laugh at them?

I mean, there is some protein in semen, but I'd rather eat an oyster.
It is just hearsay. It means I heard it from an at that time close student of his. So technically I did not hear it from him. I do not want to misrepresent what he said or claim I heard it directly from him if I did not. His name sounds similar to some kind of chinese cabbage.
Lama Bok choy?
Toenail
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Toenail »

Something like that.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:03 pmThis is immensely silly. The Sakya masters ridicule the idea that there is any inherent benefit to conserving semen, in relation to the misconception that some people have that the tantric vow of never giving up jasmine-like bodhicitta refers to semen.

Tibetan and Ayurvedic doctors understand that semen is a waste product. Geez. How many times to we have to go through this?

Well I personally would rather have real sex with a actual woman; or failing that, be able to practice Yoga for some hours a day instead of being led around by sexual desires. Or rather, practice Yoga before even engaging in sexual intercourse, ideally. And in this light, you didn’t really address the context of my entire previous post.

Also, even contemporary mainstream western doctors admit that you temporarily deplete your zinc & selenium stores with an single ejaculation.

Yea you can supplement zinc & selenium, but one has to be careful because the body can only uptake so much at a time, therefore too many ejaculations can leave one depleted because you can’t simply take a whole bunch of zinc in a short period for the body to catch up on storing it, because it would be toxic to take so much at one time.

But as we‘ve been saying a lot around here, YMMV I guess...
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by reiun »

"Winston Churchill!!"
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:58 pm Also, even contemporary mainstream western doctors admit that you temporarily deplete your zinc & selenium stores with an single ejaculation.
Citation please.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Sādhaka »

I couldn’t necessarily vouch for the following website overall, but there is some citation within the following quote:

https://www.healthaid.co.uk/healthaid-b ... Deficiency

“Frequent sex and masturbation can be one of the key causes of zinc deficiency. David Horrobin, M.D. and Ph.D. from Oxford University, declared that, “The amount of zinc in semen is such that one ejaculation may get rid of all the zinc that can be absorbed from the intestines in one day. This has a number of consequences. Unless the amount lost is replaced by an increased dietary intake, repeated ejaculation may lead to a real zinc deficiency with various problems developing, including impotence… It is even possible, given the importance of zinc for the brain, that 19th century moralists were correct when they said that repeated masturbation could make one mad!” Also Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D., in his book on zinc stated: “In a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity.””
https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a1 ... -and-menu/

...low zinc stores have been blamed for decreases in semen volume and testosterone levels, explains Sara Brewer, M.D., author of Better Sex. "Each ejaculation can expend up to 5 milligrams of zinc, or one-third of your daily allowance,"

If one gets enough zinc and selenium (and also eat animal products in general, as has been mentioned before), then maybe it’s not an huge concern.

But there’s also the problem of addiction and dopamine issues with wanking too. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s not something that is always easy to “do just everyone once in awhile”.

Therefore why not practice Yoga and/or get into a healthy sexual relationship instead (in the latter case, even if there is occasional ejaculation happening; there at least is not the same level of addiction and dopamine issues going on as with masturbation).
Last edited by Sādhaka on Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:31 am, edited 4 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

I’d like to see actual medical research on the subject. None of these assertions are evidence based.

A little digging shows that Horrobin was a quack.
Sādhaka wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 am I couldn’t necessarily vouch for the following website overall, but there is some citation within the following quote:

https://www.healthaid.co.uk/healthaid-b ... Deficiency

“Frequent sex and masturbation can be one of the key causes of zinc deficiency. David Horrobin, M.D. and Ph.D. from Oxford University, declared that, “The amount of zinc in semen is such that one ejaculation may get rid of all the zinc that can be absorbed from the intestines in one day. This has a number of consequences. Unless the amount lost is replaced by an increased dietary intake, repeated ejaculation may lead to a real zinc deficiency with various problems developing, including impotence… It is even possible, given the importance of zinc for the brain, that 19th century moralists were correct when they said that repeated masturbation could make one mad!” Also Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D., in his book on zinc stated: “In a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity.””
https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a1 ... -and-menu/

...low zinc stores have been blamed for decreases in semen volume and testosterone levels, explains Sara Brewer, M.D., author of Better Sex. "Each ejaculation can expend up to 5 milligrams of zinc, or one-third of your daily allowance,"

If one gets enough zinc and selenium (and also eat animal products in general, as has been mentioned before), then maybe it’s not an huge concern.

But there’s also the problem of addiction and dopamine issues with wanking too. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s not something that is always easy to “do just everyone once in awhile”.

Therefore why not practice Yoga and/or get into a healthy sexual relationship instead (in the latter case, even if there is occasional ejaculation happening; there at least is not the same level of addiction and dopamine issues going on as with masturbation).
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 am I couldn’t necessarily vouch for the following website overall, but there is some citation within the following quote:

https://www.healthaid.co.uk/healthaid-b ... Deficiency

“Frequent sex and masturbation can be one of the key causes of zinc deficiency. David Horrobin, M.D. and Ph.D. from Oxford University, declared that, “The amount of zinc in semen is such that one ejaculation may get rid of all the zinc that can be absorbed from the intestines in one day. This has a number of consequences. Unless the amount lost is replaced by an increased dietary intake, repeated ejaculation may lead to a real zinc deficiency with various problems developing, including impotence… It is even possible, given the importance of zinc for the brain, that 19th century moralists were correct when they said that repeated masturbation could make one mad!” Also Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D., in his book on zinc stated: “In a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity.””
https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a1 ... -and-menu/

...low zinc stores have been blamed for decreases in semen volume and testosterone levels, explains Sara Brewer, M.D., author of Better Sex. "Each ejaculation can expend up to 5 milligrams of zinc, or one-third of your daily allowance,"

If one gets enough zinc and selenium (and also eat animal products in general, as has been mentioned before), then maybe it’s not an huge concern.

But there’s also the problem of addiction and dopamine issues with wanking too. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s not something that is always easy to “do just everyone once in awhile”.

Therefore why not practice Yoga and/or get into a healthy sexual relationship instead (in the latter case, even if there is occasional ejaculation happening; there at least is not the same level of addiction and dopamine issues going on as with masturbation).
I do addiction counseling for a living and am well educated on it. Literally -anything- pleasurable does that, so it's not really an argument. You can get a dopamine hit from listening to music or petting animals too.

The stuff on losing zinc and selenium just seems like nonsense, no evidence based doc in their right mind (naturopathic or allopathic) would make a doofy argument like that.

Indeed, if someone has addictive behaviors around it that's an issue, and is much more common with porn users, which again, is made to be addictive. In those cases it is the porn doing the heavy lifting...so to speak. The addiction is more about the porn than the masturbation.

If it were that harmful then practically every 18 year old man would be suffering from severe selenium and zinc deficiencies.

That crap is not evidence based is just the evolution of "it'll make you go blind" or "it'll make you grow hair on your hands".

A rough definition for addiction is "continuing to do X despite negative consequences", if that's not happening, it's debatable that it is an addictive behavior, simply doing something compulsively does not constitute an addiction, though it can be the beginning of one. People have all kinds of compulsive behaviors.
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Heimdall
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm The Buddha nowhere mentions sex work as sexual misconduct. Independent, unmarried people are free to do as they wish. If people are in polyamorous relationships, they are also free, since it is all consensual.
The Buddha very clearly prohibits sensual dancing, ornaments, and entertainment as a violation of the eight precepts. The Buddha also very clearly prohibits "sexual misconduct", which at the very least means sex rooted in lust.

The idea he wouldn't prohibit a combination of the two - lust, sexual intercourse based entertainment - is just wrong.


That's like arguing that the Buddha prohibits psychologically torture against humans, but elsewhere the Buddha prohibits harming animals, so therefore, because he didn't talk about psychologically torturing animals, it's okay to mentally torture a dog for entertainment.

See here:

https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=226
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm The Buddha nowhere mentions sex work as sexual misconduct. Independent, unmarried people are free to do as they wish. If people are in polyamorous relationships, they are also free, since it is all consensual.
The Buddha very clearly prohibits sensual dancing, ornaments, and entertainment as a violation of the eight precepts.
These are fast day vows.
The Buddha also very clearly prohibits "sexual misconduct", which at the very least means sex rooted in lust.
No. It does not mean sexual activity which is a product of desire, you are simply wrong in this point.

The rest of your post is irrelevant.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:01 am These are fast day vows.
Yes, as ideals for the lay people. Ideals. Not "exceptional behavior that's no longer relevant in our day and age".
No. It does not mean sexual activity which is a product of desire, you are simply wrong in this point.
I'm not. Lust is a product of desire. It's a Western term, but Western terms have been a part of English Buddhism for decades now if you haven't caught on - for example, "gods", "hells", "Lord Buddha", "heavens", "greed", "sloth", etc.

Yes, polyamorous relationships are definitely not a product of sexual desire. When I'm in a relationship with my girl, and I get her consent to find another person through Tinder, I'm obviously doing it to create a "Zazen at home" free from Desire. I put in my bio "hey, tantric sex only"


My post is definitely relevant because the Buddha condemns your hyperlegalism to intentionally miss the point.

Why is "unchastity" one of the 8 precepts? It's not like the Buddha made it up irrationally and it's not connected to the rest of Dharma.
Last edited by Heimdall on Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Zhen Li »

Health and nutrition are not valid arguments for or against the question of whether masturbation is sexual misconduct. This comes down to scriptural sources, and whether you recognise them as valid or not.

East Asian sources on the topic fall on the side of it being sexual misconduct. People in Tibetan traditions don't accept these as valid. So, it depends on your tradition.

If we accept a scriptural source as legitimate, it is then not proper to excuse activity or find loopholes around it. But we can admit and confess our unskillful activities and that we are not able to uphold the standards that were easy to live up to at the time of the True Dharma.

Realising that there's no other place for us than hell, we should wholeheartedly rely upon the Primal Vow and recite the name of Amitābha Buddha.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Heimdall »

Zhen Li wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:14 am Health and nutrition are not valid arguments for or against the question of whether masturbation is sexual misconduct. This comes down to scriptural sources, and whether you recognise them as valid or not.

East Asian sources on the topic fall on the side of it being sexual misconduct. People in Tibetan traditions don't accept these as valid. So, it depends on your tradition.

If we accept a scriptural source as legitimate, it is then not proper to excuse activity or find loopholes around it. But we can admit and confess our unskillful activities and that we are not able to uphold the standards that were easy to live up to at the time of the True Dharma.

Realising that there's no other place for us than hell, we should wholeheartedly rely upon the Primal Vow and recite the name of Amitābha Buddha.
:good:

Way more on the dot than my post which was more reactionary to Malcolm's viewpoints.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:12 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:01 am These are fast day vows.
Yes, as ideals for the lay people. Ideals. Not "exceptional behavior that's no longer relevant in our day and age".
The Upavasa vows have only ever been one day vows for lay people to emulate the conduct of arhats twice a month.
Why is sexual misconduct one of the 8 precepts?
You don’t seem to understand the parameters of sexual misconduct.

There are four categories of sexual misconduct when defined from the point of view of the individual: upasaka, upavasa, shramanera, and bhikshu. Eight, when multiplied by gender.

For the latter three, sexual misconduct is any sexual conduct, including masturbation, for the duration the vow is maintained. In the case of the upavasa, the fast day vow, only 24 hours.

Otherwise, for the upasaka, sexual misconduct is defined in terms of partner, place, time, and orifice. A wrong partner is another’s spouse, partner, or fiancé, a minor, someone under guardianship, or a close relative. Wrong place means in public, a shrine or temple. Wrong Time means daytime. Wrong Orifice means oral or anal. That’s it, this is all described in chapter four of the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam of Vasubandhu, which is definitive on this subject for Sarvastivadin upasakas like myself.

One is not required to observe the vow of refraining from intoxication and sexual misconduct (the latter depends on the former for upasakas) if one decides one does not wish to hold all five vows. One can be a three vow holder, observing only the restraints from killing, stealing, and lying.

Of course, in Vajrayana, it goes without saying that desire is employed in the path,

As Zhen Li points out, the Tibetan tradition only recognizes Indian source texts of verifiable provenance for such issues.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Virgo »

Heimdall wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm The Buddha nowhere mentions sex work as sexual misconduct. Independent, unmarried people are free to do as they wish. If people are in polyamorous relationships, they are also free, since it is all consensual.
The Buddha very clearly prohibits sensual dancing, ornaments, and entertainment as a violation of the eight precepts. The Buddha also very clearly prohibits "sexual misconduct", which at the very least means sex rooted in lust.
I think you might be projecting Western mores onto the Dharma.

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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Zhen Li »

The thing with the Chinese source for this act, the Upāsakaśilasūtra (which words it as "sex by oneself"), is that it is probably a combination of three texts: the Sūtra on the Worship of the Six Directions, and two versions of the Sujāta Sūtra, one of which is the one found in the Dīrghāgama. The other two materials are probably at least from central Asian sources. But it might make you wonder why it is excluded from other formulae, especially since sexual misconduct for an upasaka is generally characterised as anything not involving a wife.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 am I couldn’t necessarily vouch for the following website overall, but there is some citation within the following quote:

https://www.healthaid.co.uk/healthaid-b ... Deficiency

“Frequent sex and masturbation can be one of the key causes of zinc deficiency. David Horrobin, M.D. and Ph.D. from Oxford University, declared that, “The amount of zinc in semen is such that one ejaculation may get rid of all the zinc that can be absorbed from the intestines in one day. This has a number of consequences. Unless the amount lost is replaced by an increased dietary intake, repeated ejaculation may lead to a real zinc deficiency with various problems developing, including impotence… It is even possible, given the importance of zinc for the brain, that 19th century moralists were correct when they said that repeated masturbation could make one mad!” Also Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D., in his book on zinc stated: “In a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity.””
https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a1 ... -and-menu/

...low zinc stores have been blamed for decreases in semen volume and testosterone levels, explains Sara Brewer, M.D., author of Better Sex. "Each ejaculation can expend up to 5 milligrams of zinc, or one-third of your daily allowance,"

If one gets enough zinc and selenium (and also eat animal products in general, as has been mentioned before), then maybe it’s not an huge concern.

But there’s also the problem of addiction and dopamine issues with wanking too. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s not something that is always easy to “do just everyone once in awhile”.

Therefore why not practice Yoga and/or get into a healthy sexual relationship instead (in the latter case, even if there is occasional ejaculation happening; there at least is not the same level of addiction and dopamine issues going on as with masturbation).
There are such small doses of those minerals that literally eating a handful of nuts or a few potatoes with skin would just solve it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:28 am Otherwise, for the upasaka, sexual misconduct is defined in terms of partner, place, time, and orifice. A wrong partner is another’s spouse, partner, or fiancé, a minor, someone under guardianship, or a close relative. Wrong place means in public, a shrine or temple. Wrong Time means daytime. Wrong Orifice means oral or anal. That’s it, this is all described in chapter four of the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam of Vasubandhu, which is definitive on this subject for Sarvastivadin upasakas like myself.

One is not required to observe the vow of refraining from intoxication and sexual misconduct (the latter depends on the former for upasakas) if one decides one does not wish to hold all five vows. One can be a three vow holder, observing only the restraints from killing, stealing, and lying.
I always found the restriction of oral and anal sex quite strange and a bit excluding for me as a gay man. I usually try to live by your quotation of Dudjom Rinpoche "hole is a hole", however it still comes up and makes me wonder/worry from time to time. Does simple definition of sexual misconduct as not hurting with sexuality (so no cheating, not involving people who don't agree with it in my sexual activities (eg. doing it in public), rapet etc) for me mean I can uphold the vow partially at least (like the butcher not killing at night)? Would Garchen Rinpoche's advice to do it not for oneself but for the partner to bring them some pleasure/happiness make it possible for one to engage in these acts since adhering to bodhisattva ideals makes some prohibited bahaviour possible? What would be your interpratation?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Heimdall »

Virgo wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:58 am
Heimdall wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm The Buddha nowhere mentions sex work as sexual misconduct. Independent, unmarried people are free to do as they wish. If people are in polyamorous relationships, they are also free, since it is all consensual.
The Buddha very clearly prohibits sensual dancing, ornaments, and entertainment as a violation of the eight precepts. The Buddha also very clearly prohibits "sexual misconduct", which at the very least means sex rooted in lust.
I think you might be projecting Western mores onto the Dharma.

Virgo
Going off of what Zhen Li said, there are many schools of Buddhism with differing disciplines, beliefs, mores, etc.

If we are strictly going off of what the traditional sources tell us, I'm not projecting Western mores anywhere near to the degree that many on this thread are, like Malcolm claiming that "sex work" and "polyamorous relationships" are fully in line with Buddhist mores.

https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=323
https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=5
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