Giving Up Masturbation

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Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:59 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:15 pm This is not correct. Semen, bija, is the final waste product of the process of digesting food. The pure part of sukra is transformed in ojas, the impure part becomes the bija.
Understood. But there must be more than one reason why monastics have to follow a celibacy vow. The most obvious of which is sense restraint. But other than this dont you think that the other reason is semen retention?
No, I don’t.
megaman chiquito
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by megaman chiquito »

This may sound superstitious but if a man wants to quit masturbation, I suggest dousing the genitals with cold water after each urination. Cold showers also help,but if you dont want full cold shower, localized icy water will help. :thumbsup:
I learned this from a book on yogic celibacy.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

megaman chiquito wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:08 pm This may sound superstitious but if a man wants to quit masturbation, I suggest dousing the genitals with cold water after each urination. Cold showers also help,but if you dont want full cold shower, localized icy water will help. :thumbsup:
I learned this from a book on yogic celibacy.
Sounds unpleasant.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 pm
megaman chiquito wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:08 pm This may sound superstitious but if a man wants to quit masturbation, I suggest dousing the genitals with cold water after each urination. Cold showers also help,but if you dont want full cold shower, localized icy water will help. :thumbsup:
Sounds unpleasant.
Yes. Instead maybe try chanting "Winston Churchill" (apologies to the Beatles).

P.S. The emoji is counter-suggestive
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by cjdevries »

I have also read about yogis recommending one clean their genitals with cold water before bed to prevent the sexual urge. Paramahansa Yogananda advised one to take a towel with cold water and wash the genitals, which is supposed to diminish the sexual urge.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Dharmasherab »

megaman chiquito wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:08 pm This may sound superstitious but if a man wants to quit masturbation, I suggest dousing the genitals with cold water after each urination. Cold showers also help,but if you dont want full cold shower, localized icy water will help. :thumbsup:
I learned this from a book on yogic celibacy.
The practice of Brahmacharya predates the time of the Buddha. Back then there was no central heating or pipelines for heating water, so people had no choice but to take cold baths especially during the cold season in Ancient India. Its one way of seeing that bathing in cold water (or nowadays cold showers) it is perfectly normal and that in recent years we humans have been a little bit spoilt with having the option for warm showers or baths.

I have tried dousing genitals in cold water as well as cold showers initially for the maintenence of celibacy. But later on I continued with the cold showers even though I no longer need it to maintain my celibacy, because it has other benefits too.

When it comes to literature on celibacy the Hindu yogis are the experts.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Dharmasherab »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:00 pm
Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:59 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:15 pm This is not correct. Semen, bija, is the final waste product of the process of digesting food. The pure part of sukra is transformed in ojas, the impure part becomes the bija.
Understood. But there must be more than one reason why monastics have to follow a celibacy vow. The most obvious of which is sense restraint. But other than this dont you think that the other reason is semen retention?
No, I don’t.
But it is a monastic offence to intentionally release semen according to the complete set of Pratimoksa rules. One needs to serve a period of penence for doing such an act.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:42 am
There is no one single way of engaging in sexual activity in a manner which causes no or minimum harm. Clearly there are ways which it can result in harm at the level of the body as well as the mind. But this doesn't mean that every single type of sexual activity is harmful as far as lay people are concerned.
I didn't say anything like that.
The problem with thinking in this manner is that it fails to make distinction between sex which does no or little apparent harm compared with types of sexual activity which are done intentionally to cause harm to another or to gain pleasure at the expense of the suffering of others. Labelling another's view as 'moralistic self-flagellation' seems like a convenient catchphrase to justify sexual immorality when one speaks from ones disturbing emotions which is void of wisdom.
Obviously sex intended to cause harm is just that, beyond that it is all (even your "healthy" sex) neurotic in one way or another, just a question of degree. There is no problem with me thinking how I want to think. I am not justifying any sort of behavior, and in fact I said that I think sex is typically neurotic. When approached this way, one can acknowledge that it is a question of harm reduction in the lives of individuals, instead of just clumsily moralizing about the behavior of others, as with your approach.

If overcoming an addiction habit was that easy then we wont have a need for psychotherapists. it is actually a lot more complicated than this. One may not always need to have problems with their life's circumstances to develop a compulsive habit towards maturbation. The activity itself get people hooked on even when there are no surrounding issues.
I am licensed to treat addiction, and have done so for a living, it's a thing I know about pretty well. It is uncommon to see addictions which are not connected to other areas of life, and when they are (i.e. addictions theorized to be primarily biological/temperament based, which is not even a thing really, a multipath model is standard), they don't stay that way for long. My recommendation for journaling around compulsive behavior btw is a standard practice, and not presented as a panacea.

Of course it is compulsive. So is eating for many people -especially those in affluent societies. Compulsiveness is evolutionarilyy built into human behavior, even on a purely secular level, it is nothing special. Trying to frame it some moral downfall in the manner you are is IMO just religious moralizing, and not terribly helpful for anyone.

We can argue the intent of the various Buddhist views on it, but purely in terms of efficacy moral condemnation and consequence-mongering do not help people move past compulsive behaviors, whereas helping them examine causes and effects of behavior themselves often does. Miller and Rollnick's research give some some insight on this.
It well known that retaining semen has benefits over frequent ejaculation. Monastics dont have to concern themselves with this given that they are meant to be committed to celibacy. As for non-celibates it is known that successful people in sports as well as spiritual development have engaged in semen retention and used that for transformation.
Cool, well having been a medical professional I assume you can provide some empirical examples of how semen retention is beneficial outside a religious/spiritual context, since you are framing your advice that way.

So where is this "well known", other than in specific spiritual traditions? With sports it is quite easy, sex is distracting, and the specifics ideas of semen retention are unnecessary as an explanation there.
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Dan74
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Dan74 »

Your balls and the entire perineum hurting is a great cure for masturbation. Right now, they do. Have been on and off for a while. I guess it's karma.

All this shit is temporary and the bits wear out. Is it really worth your while to put so much energy and time into this?

Yeah, sure, it's me talking to my younger self. But the point still holds. It's worth looking into. What's really important to you? What is this gig really about?
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:00 pm
Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:59 am

Understood. But there must be more than one reason why monastics have to follow a celibacy vow. The most obvious of which is sense restraint. But other than this dont you think that the other reason is semen retention?
No, I don’t.
But it is a monastic offence to intentionally release semen according to the complete set of Pratimoksa rules. One needs to serve a period of penence for doing such an act.
Yes. But it has nothing to do with some health benefit. It’s also an offense for nuns to masuturbate.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Dharmasherab »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:30 am
Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:00 pm

No, I don’t.
But it is a monastic offence to intentionally release semen according to the complete set of Pratimoksa rules. One needs to serve a period of penence for doing such an act.
Yes. But it has nothing to do with some health benefit. It’s also an offense for nuns to masuturbate.
It goes without saying that for monastics who follow the full Pratinoksha vows that the attempt to amsturbate is an offense. So this is why I felt it wasnt even necessary to mention that.

I dont think its correct for you to say that there is no health benefit in avoiding masturbation. If you look at journals on the NoFap website, those who used to masturbate found that they changed after stopping masturbation. A particular example is the person who goes under the alias of 'Soaring Eagle' who developed health problems partly because of excessive masturbation. He managed to reverse his problems by sticking to a disciplined life where abstaining from masturbation (and sex) for his time of recovery played a vital role.

I can appreciate that it is not possible to speak beyond one's experience and if one has not lived a period of time as a voluntary celibate then it can be difficult for them to appreciate the benefits that come along with it.

I do hasten to say that there is the obvious reason, espcially for monastics why there are disciolinary rules against any kind of intentional sexual activity where celibacy is seen as an important aspect of a renunciant's lifestyle. Celibacy is seen a defining principle of monastic life for orders which choose to obey the fully Pratimoksha rules. However if there are side benefits or unintended benefits that comea along with that, then there is no harm in appreciating that.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dharmasherab wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:30 am
Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:01 pm

But it is a monastic offence to intentionally release semen according to the complete set of Pratimoksa rules. One needs to serve a period of penence for doing such an act.
Yes. But it has nothing to do with some health benefit. It’s also an offense for nuns to masuturbate.
It goes without saying that for monastics who follow the full Pratinoksha vows that the attempt to amsturbate is an offense. So this is why I felt it wasnt even necessary to mention that.

I dont think its correct for you to say that there is no health benefit in avoiding masturbation. If you look at journals on the NoFap website, those who used to masturbate found that they changed after stopping masturbation. A particular example is the person who goes under the alias of 'Soaring Eagle' who developed health problems partly because of excessive masturbation. He managed to reverse his problems by sticking to a disciplined life where abstaining from masturbation (and sex) for his time of recovery played a vital role.
Aside from people with sexual dysfunction or true mental health/emotional issues resulting from doing it excessively, there is simply no evidence at all that masturbation is physically bad for you, and obviously that site is not a reliable means of obtaining information about it.

Health wise masturbation is a neutral activity, regular ejaculation puts you at less risk of some prostate, etc. issues but that is mostly later in life.

You cannot really discuss this issue with young men in the present without reference to porn, something which is designed to addictive and is usually involved with compulsive masturbation.
I can appreciate that it is not possible to speak beyond one's experience and if one has not lived a period of time as a voluntary celibate then it can be difficult for them to appreciate the benefits that come along with it.
It’s certainly possible to speak about thing which have evidence for them, and things which don’t, and rely on other things for their truth claims.
I do hasten to say that there is the obvious reason, espcially for monastics why there are disciolinary rules against any kind of intentional sexual activity where celibacy is seen as an important aspect of a renunciant's lifestyle. Celibacy is seen a defining principle of monastic life for orders which choose to obey the fully Pratimoksha rules. However if there are side benefits or unintended benefits that comea along with that, then there is no harm in appreciating that.
Sure, obviously for Monks not masturbating has greater import. Trying to spook other people into not doing it based on these specious arguments is questionable though, it’s a bit removed from warning people they’ll go blind, but close enough.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Sādhaka »

Wanking or fapping is simply not an good idea.

I mean you can try to manage it via general Tibetan Medicine advice, i.e. only twice a month in the summer, only two or three times a week in the spring & autumn, etc. However once you get the nerves down there going, it’s not always so easy to restrain oneself to such & such many times an week and so forth.

Tibetan monks—if they have a good teacher who takes these kinds of things into account—are likely taught Trul Khor in order to be able to control the sexual impulse.

The most difficult part of abstaining, is the flatlines. Meaning that once you hit an flatline after the genital nerves calm down after a couple weeks, you get quite lethargic; and it can last for like six weeks depending on the individual. See the NoFap community on the flatlines thing. Then again, as I’ve just mentioned Yantra Yoga or Khrul Khor, this type of Yoga I imagine would stave off the ‘flatlines’ completely.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:01 pm But it is a monastic offence to intentionally release semen according to the complete set of Pratimoksa rules. One needs to serve a period of penence for doing such an act.
Correct, because unless it is nocturnal emission, one has come under the influence of strong desire-- which is fine for lay people, not renunciants.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasherab wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:56 pm excessive masturbation.
Excess anything is bad for you, including excess water. But you certainly are not going to suggest we stop drinking water because excess water can kill us, right?
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:40 pm
Tibetan monks—if they have a good teacher who takes these kinds of things into account—are likely taught Trul Khor in order to be able to control the sexual impulse.
This is immensely silly. The Sakya masters ridicule the idea that there is any inherent benefit to conserving semen, in relation to the misconception that some people have that the tantric vow of never giving up jasmine-like bodhicitta refers to semen.

Tibetan and Ayurvedic doctors understand that semen is a waste product. Geez. How many times to we have to go through this?
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I find this obsession with masturbation and no nut november and no fap movements quite silly. I mean ... come on. Seriously what is so bad about touching your willy? Do you feel you are doing it way too much? Well then try getting better things to do, that ought to stop you. But obsessing over masturbation is not helpful. Not to mention that I don't really see what benefit is there for us upasakas in not doing it or what detriment there really is.
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Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:06 pm I find this obsession with masturbation and no nut november and no fap movements quite silly. I mean ... come on. Seriously what is so bad about touching your willy? Do you feel you are doing it way too much? Well then try getting better things to do, that ought to stop you. But obsessing over masturbation is not helpful. Not to mention that I don't really see what benefit is there for us upasakas.
I think what they need is a device that gives them a shock anytime they touch it apart from having a whizz. Aversion therapy.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:03 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:40 pm
Tibetan monks—if they have a good teacher who takes these kinds of things into account—are likely taught Trul Khor in order to be able to control the sexual impulse.
This is immensely silly. The Sakya masters ridicule the idea that there is any inherent benefit to conserving semen, in relation to the misconception that some people have that the tantric vow of never giving up jasmine-like bodhicitta refers to semen.

Tibetan and Ayurvedic doctors understand that semen is a waste product. Geez. How many times to we have to go through this?
There is a known hyped teacher that tells students to eat their semen after masturbation. This is rubbish and has no benefit? I dont do this btw, LOL.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:03 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:40 pm
Tibetan monks—if they have a good teacher who takes these kinds of things into account—are likely taught Trul Khor in order to be able to control the sexual impulse.
This is immensely silly. The Sakya masters ridicule the idea that there is any inherent benefit to conserving semen, in relation to the misconception that some people have that the tantric vow of never giving up jasmine-like bodhicitta refers to semen.

Tibetan and Ayurvedic doctors understand that semen is a waste product. Geez. How many times to we have to go through this?
There is a known hyped teacher that tells students to eat their semen after masturbation. This is rubbish and has no benefit? I dont do this btw, LOL.
Who is this person so we can laugh at them?

I mean, there is some protein in semen, but I'd rather eat an oyster.
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