Great Vegan Debate

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tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

seeker242 wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:05 pm This study simply confirms that vegan children should supplement. This is already well known and easy to do.
... and very natural.
Just a question: do you need to supplement something that is complete, adequate and sufficient?
Second question: how many other nutritional components should be supplemented because they are missing?
Third question: How many micronutrients are there missing from this diet, still unknown to science, that should be supplemented?
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

tatpurusa wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:41 pm


... and very natural.
As was discussed, natural is irrelevant.
Just a question: do you need to supplement something that is complete, adequate and sufficient?
It doesn't matter what is or is not adequate, when it's easy to make it adequate.
Second question: how many other nutritional components should be supplemented because they are missing?
It depends. Is the person a junk food vegan eating cookies and coca cola for dinner? There could be a lot missing. Or, are they a whole foods vegan eating a well balanced diet? For the latter, essentially B12 and Omega-3s.
Third question: How many micronutrients are there missing from this diet, still unknown to science, that should be supplemented?
How many things are unknown? That doesn't even make any sense. If you claim that there are some unknown things missing, then what are they? That question makes as much sense as your question, which is essentially none.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

seeker242 wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:02 pm
Third question: How many micronutrients are there missing from this diet, still unknown to science, that should be supplemented?
How many things are unknown? That doesn't even make any sense. If you claim that there are some unknown things missing, then what are they? That question makes as much sense as your question, which is essentially none.
Right. Questioning a dogma makes no sense whatsoever indeed.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

tatpurusa wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:05 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:02 pm
Third question: How many micronutrients are there missing from this diet, still unknown to science, that should be supplemented?
How many things are unknown? That doesn't even make any sense. If you claim that there are some unknown things missing, then what are they? That question makes as much sense as your question, which is essentially none.
Right. Questioning a dogma makes no sense whatsoever indeed.
A reasonable way to question dogma is to use actual evidence, not random guessing.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

seeker242 wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:13 pm A reasonable way to question dogma is to use actual evidence, not random guessing.
What is unreasonable is stating that a diet that sustained humans for millions of years human history, including all groups,
would somehow cause harm now.
On the other hand stating - as you do - that a diet never ever eaten in human history - exclusively based on plants, would
somehow fit human physiology better.
This would need actual facts-based evidence that you cannot provide. All you can do is citing your preferred authorities
on this theory-based nutritional experiment.
Maximum 30 years of experiment by a relatively small subgroup of people is nothing compared to millions of years experience
by the totality of humans.
So your claims are extraordinary and need extraordinary proof, not just opinions.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

tatpurusa wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 11:56 pm
What is unreasonable is stating that a diet that sustained humans for millions of years human history, including all groups,
would somehow cause harm now.
What is unreasonable is stating that a vegan diet is inherently harmful, without any reasonable evidence to back it up, which is exactly what you have done.
On the other hand stating - as you do - that a diet never ever eaten in human history - exclusively based on plants, would
somehow fit human physiology better.
This would need actual facts-based evidence that you cannot provide. All you can do is citing your preferred authorities
on this theory-based nutritional experiment..
What I have claimed is that your claims are bogus claims.
So your claims are extraordinary and need extraordinary proof, not just opinions.
I don't need extraordinary proof to prove your claims are bogus. All I need to do is show that you have no actual evidence for them. The burden of proof is on you to back it up, and you have not because you cannot, because they're false. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Nemo
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo »

Ideologues are boring.
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tobes
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tobes »

To be uphold veganism and bodhicitta at the same time, this advice from A Daily Prayer to Maitreya is perfect:

May I never transgress the discipline of morality and free myself from pride,
Since by having pride in the appearance of morality and purity,
One is without morality,
I wish to accomplish the perfection of morality.

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

tobes wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:23 am To be uphold veganism and bodhicitta at the same time, this advice from A Daily Prayer to Maitreya is perfect:

May I never transgress the discipline of morality and free myself from pride,
Since by having pride in the appearance of morality and purity,
One is without morality,
I wish to accomplish the perfection of morality.

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
:good:
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

seeker242 wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:20 am
So your claims are extraordinary and need extraordinary proof, not just opinions.
I don't need extraordinary proof to prove your claims are bogus. All I need to do is show that you have no actual evidence for them. The burden of proof is on you to back it up, and you have not because you cannot, because they're false. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.
Facts do not need proof, whereas theories do.

Fact is, that humans survived, lived, thrived and evolved during millions of years on three kinds of diets: carnivorous, omnivorous and vegetarian.
All three are composed of various percentages of plant- and animal-based foods.
The proof that these kind of diets are capable of sustaining human health is the fact that we still have not perished as the human race.

Veganism has never been part of this, so its ability of sustaining human health is not fact-based.
Veganism is purely theory- and ideology based.
The only fact that we know about veganism is that it is impossible to survive this diet without the help of industrially synthesized supplements.
And these are much more than just Vit. B12 and Omega3 fats. (Think about carnitine,Vit A, Vit. D and many more)
All these supplements occur in nature only in animal-based foods. For vegans these need to be synthesized chemically, because
their extraction from animal sources would negate veganism in itself.

The problems with civilizational illnesses began in the twentieth century when industry and lobbies began meddling with nutrition.
The chemical industry created agrochemicals, GMO, food processing industry and food processing chemicals. Around the same time
the chemical industry began meddling with medicines and the pharmaceutical industry was born.
The superiority of these new products vs. traditional ones had to be proven in order to be sold. So large-scale meddling with scientific research by these lobbies began. Big Pharma, Big Chem, Food processing industry and Agricultural Industry are all part of it. They infiltrated, bought, pressured, intimidated scientists systematically in order to get the results favorable to them.
This way nutritional ideologies were born.

The hallmark of manipulated scientific research are epidemiological (correlational) studies. Though all scientists know that correlation
does not imply causation, these kind of studies are routinely used in order to get the "proper" results. They constitute the vast majority
of studies about nutrition.

The next pet project of these lobbies is veganism because it creates an absolute dependence on synthetically produced products (supplements)
and on processed food ("food fortification"). And in case this does not work out, on pharmaceuticals.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

tatpurusa wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:32 am
Facts do not need proof, whereas theories do.
You haven't provided any facts that establish that your outlandish claims are true.
Fact is, that humans survived, lived, thrived and evolved during millions of years on three kinds of diets: carnivorous, omnivorous and vegetarian.
All three are composed of various percentages of plant- and animal-based foods.
The proof that these kind of diets are capable of sustaining human health is the fact that we still have not perished as the human race.
None of that proves vegan is inherently dangerous, which is what you have claimed.
Veganism has never been part of this, so its ability of sustaining human health is not fact-based.
Veganism is purely theory- and ideology based.
The only fact that we know about veganism is that it is impossible to survive this diet without the help of industrially synthesized supplements.
And these are much more than just Vit. B12 and Omega3 fats. (Think about carnitine,Vit A, Vit. D and many more)
All these supplements occur in nature only in animal-based foods. For vegans these need to be synthesized chemically, because
their extraction from animal sources would negate veganism in itself.
None of that proves vegan is inherently dangerous either. It's also partly false. Most of the B12 that you find in meat these days, do you even know where it comes from? It does not come from "nature". It comes from the farmers giving the animals...SUPPLEMENTS...But of course, you are going to ignore that fact because it's too inconvenient for you to address. Of course there are much more than B12 and omega 3s. The fact that there is much more does not mean they can't be obtained from plants.
The problems with civilizational illnesses began in the twentieth century when industry and lobbies began meddling with nutrition.
The chemical industry created agrochemicals, GMO, food processing industry and food processing chemicals. Around the same time
the chemical industry began meddling with medicines and the pharmaceutical industry was born.
The superiority of these new products vs. traditional ones had to be proven in order to be sold. So large-scale meddling with scientific research by these lobbies began. Big Pharma, Big Chem, Food processing industry and Agricultural Industry are all part of it. They infiltrated, bought, pressured, intimidated scientists systematically in order to get the results favorable to them.
This way nutritional ideologies were born.
None of that proves vegan is inherently dangerous either.
The hallmark of manipulated scientific research are epidemiological (correlational) studies. Though all scientists know that correlation
does not imply causation, these kind of studies are routinely used in order to get the "proper" results. They constitute the vast majority
of studies about nutrition.

The next pet project of these lobbies is veganism because it creates an absolute dependence on synthetically produced products (supplements)
and on processed food ("food fortification"). And in case this does not work out, on pharmaceuticals.
And again, none of that proves vegan is inherently dangerous.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

tatpurusa wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:32 am
seeker242 wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:20 am
So your claims are extraordinary and need extraordinary proof, not just opinions.
I don't need extraordinary proof to prove your claims are bogus. All I need to do is show that you have no actual evidence for them. The burden of proof is on you to back it up, and you have not because you cannot, because they're false. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.
Facts do not need proof, whereas theories do.

Fact is, that humans survived, lived, thrived and evolved during millions of years on three kinds of diets: carnivorous, omnivorous and vegetarian.
All three are composed of various percentages of plant- and animal-based foods.
The proof that these kind of diets are capable of sustaining human health is the fact that we still have not perished as the human race.

Veganism has never been part of this, so its ability of sustaining human health is not fact-based.
Veganism is purely theory- and ideology based.
The only fact that we know about veganism is that it is impossible to survive this diet without the help of industrially synthesized supplements.
And these are much more than just Vit. B12 and Omega3 fats. (Think about carnitine,Vit A, Vit. D and many more)
All these supplements occur in nature only in animal-based foods. For vegans these need to be synthesized chemically, because
their extraction from animal sources would negate veganism in itself.

The problems with civilizational illnesses began in the twentieth century when industry and lobbies began meddling with nutrition.
The chemical industry created agrochemicals, GMO, food processing industry and food processing chemicals. Around the same time
the chemical industry began meddling with medicines and the pharmaceutical industry was born.
The superiority of these new products vs. traditional ones had to be proven in order to be sold. So large-scale meddling with scientific research by these lobbies began. Big Pharma, Big Chem, Food processing industry and Agricultural Industry are all part of it. They infiltrated, bought, pressured, intimidated scientists systematically in order to get the results favorable to them.
This way nutritional ideologies were born.

The hallmark of manipulated scientific research are epidemiological (correlational) studies. Though all scientists know that correlation
does not imply causation, these kind of studies are routinely used in order to get the "proper" results. They constitute the vast majority
of studies about nutrition.

The next pet project of these lobbies is veganism because it creates an absolute dependence on synthetically produced products (supplements)
and on processed food ("food fortification"). And in case this does not work out, on pharmaceuticals.
You can get vitamin D from the sun exposure and most of the population is low on it anyway. And B12 is made by bacteria in a ground so if you are so into getting things from the source then ground is the way to go and also some rivers have a water rich on B12. But now seriously. WHO stated that it is healthy if done properly. Also many other experts did.

Facts are nice and dandy but even they need a proof. Otherwise it is a dogma. So give us proof about those brocolli lobbies that want us to be hooked on B12 vitamins and omega 3 supplements.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

Miroku wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:05 pm You can get vitamin D from the sun exposure and most of the population is low on it anyway.
My last checkup, my Dr. commented that I was one of the only people he has seen in months that actually has proper Vit D levels and I'm his only vegan client. :lol:
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tobes
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tobes »

I think both sides in this dialectic over what the medical science actually says need to recognise that there is almost no veridical proof for anything in the domain of causation, nutrition, health, disease, long life etc.

It's extraordinarily difficult to establish causal knowledge about diets because there are so many variables.

So I'm finding the appeals for facts and evidence rather unconvincing: we don't actually know much yet. We have correlations and probabilities. A bit of intellectual humility might help you make your case for diet A or diet B a bit more salient.
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

There is a lot of evidence that the vegan diet is indeed inadequate:

Is a vegan diet safe for infants and children?
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2019/02/is-a ... -children/
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

tatpurusa wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:09 pm There is a lot of evidence that the vegan diet is indeed inadequate:

Is a vegan diet safe for infants and children?
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2019/02/is-a ... -children/
That's not evidence. Supplementation is an inherent part of a vegan diet, supplements work, therefore it's false to say it's inherently unsafe.

If a vegan diet were safe per se, it would provide all nutrients required for life and health.
That's nonsensical when the supplements themselves are what make it safe...It can easily be made safe, therefore it's safe. To purposefully remove the very thing that makes it safe, and then criticize it as unsafe, is an intentionally dishonest characterization.
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Nemo
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo »

The month of Saga Dawa has started. Peaking on the next full moon. What a wonderful time to be vegetarian for a few days. Even not preparing meat in the house till the full moon. Anything helps.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

Very interesting video regarding vegans and DHA. It's quite long so really only relevant if you want to know the minute detail. It essentially argues that no, vegans don't need to supplement DHA and the idea that vegans need it, is really just a sales and marketing tactic from those who sell supplements.

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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris »

Nemo wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am The month of Saga Dawa has started. Peaking on the next full moon. What a wonderful time to be vegetarian for a few days. Even not preparing meat in the house till the full moon. Anything helps.
I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago for the United Nations Vesak Day conference. They had the most incredible buffet of vegan and vegetarian food I have ever seen in my life for the participants.

After the conference I stayed a few more days in Hanoi to see the city. It is full of vegan restaurants for the Mahayana crowd.

I ate some incredible food.

Even the standard restaurants all had vegetarian and vegan versions of their dishes.

It is stupid to say that this or that particular diet is inherently healthy or unhealthy. It depends on so many factors: how you eat, what you eat, when you eat it, what you combine it with, your activity levels, certain genetic factors, etc...

I, for example, have been a vegetarian for over 25 years. For the past few years I have been eating a little meat ritually, once or twice a month. I had blood tests recently and they found borderline high cholesterol levels!!! And that even though I exercise intensely at least three times a week.

WTF???

AND not only am I vegetarian, but I also eat really well: Heaps of fruit and vegetables. No fried foods (well, maybe once every couple of weeks I will eat some freshly fried potato chips cooked in local olive oil). Minimal high fat cheeses. Lots of locally grown products. Very little sugar. No junk food. Etc...

:shrug:
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 pm Very interesting video regarding vegans and DHA. It's quite long so really only relevant if you want to know the minute detail. It essentially argues that no, vegans don't need to supplement DHA and the idea that vegans need it, is really just a sales and marketing tactic from those who sell supplements.
Supplements, in general, are a scam and only minimally useful in instances where people do not eat a properly balanced diet or have extremely unhealthy (physically and mentally) lifestyles.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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