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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:22 am
by tobes
One of the things I want to throw into the mix is to distinguish between the moral roots of veganism in recent western moral thinking - namely, Peter Singer and Tom Regan; their utilitarian reasoning - and Buddhistic motivations. They are very different.

The barometer for the latter is impartial compassion to all beings. Including animals. But also, cattle farmers, hamburger eaters et al.

Where this is present, I can only pay homage. :bow:

But to be frank, I don't think it is often present.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 6:07 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
tobes wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 7:22 am One of the things I want to throw into the mix is to distinguish between the moral roots of veganism in recent western moral thinking - namely, Peter Singer and Tom Regan; their utilitarian reasoning - and Buddhistic motivations. They are very different.

The barometer for the latter is impartial compassion to all beings. Including animals. But also, cattle farmers, hamburger eaters et al.

Where this is present, I can only pay homage. :bow:

But to be frank, I don't think it is often present.
Nice, concise way of putting it. This accurately describes my feelings as well.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:12 pm
by DharmaN00b
He's equanimous, but no slouch when it comes to picking sides :twothumbsup:


Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
DharmaN00b wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 9:12 pm He's equanimous, but no slouch when it comes to picking sides :twothumbsup:

Or he can just see that sometimes we can get involved in a kind of creeping self-righteousness disguised as ahmisa.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:14 am
by DharmaN00b
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Or he can just see that sometimes we can get involved in a kind of creeping self-righteousness disguised as ahmisa.
Oh, good point. Yes.

I was also wondering whether impartiality might lead to decision paralysis if that makes any sense. :shrug:

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:58 am
by Johnny Dangerous
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 5:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Or he can just see that sometimes we can get involved in a kind of creeping self-righteousness disguised as ahmisa.
Oh, good point. Yes.

I was also wondering whether impartiality might lead to decision paralysis if that makes any sense. :shrug:
Well, maybe. In my experience other lifestyle elements (such as do you have kids, do you have a full time job etc.) are equally or more important to how people make dietary decisions than moral or spiritual ones.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 am
by DharmaN00b
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:58 am
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 5:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Or he can just see that sometimes we can get involved in a kind of creeping self-righteousness disguised as ahmisa.
Oh, good point. Yes.

I was also wondering whether impartiality might lead to decision paralysis if that makes any sense. :shrug:
Well, maybe. In my experience other lifestyle elements (such as do you have kids, do you have a full time job etc.) are equally or more important to how people make dietary decisions than moral or spiritual ones.
So those are examples of skill in means or expediency! ?

I imagine as a Moderator you have lots of experience being impartial and making judgements too, which makes you a good person to ask.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:31 am
by muni
The ideas behind vegetarian and so veganism can be of nonviolence. And this meaning of nonviolence is of course to appreciate. However on a retreat people prepared dishes for us based on soy only. I could not participate, I get health problems by eating any food with even some rests of soy in them.

Also for soya fields, forests and homes of many beings can be destroyed and so their lives finally as well if this continues. There will even come no egg anymore. We cannot decide any life style is not harming by looking from one side. therefore I do not say soy should be stopped either.
Palm oil and soy oil for biofuels linked to high rates of deforestation - new study. A significant share of palm oil and soybean expansion happens on rainforests, forests, peatland and savannahs (land with high carbon stocks), according to a new study reviewing the latest scientific evidence on deforestation.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/pr ... -new-study

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:55 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:58 am
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 5:14 am
Oh, good point. Yes.

I was also wondering whether impartiality might lead to decision paralysis if that makes any sense. :shrug:
Well, maybe. In my experience other lifestyle elements (such as do you have kids, do you have a full time job etc.) are equally or more important to how people make dietary decisions than moral or spiritual ones.
So those are examples of skill in means or expediency! ?

I imagine as a Moderator you have lots of experience being impartial and making judgements too, which makes you a good person to ask.
I just mean that while many of us may claim to make decision about things like diet based on high ethical or spiritual principles, for diet in particular life circumstances pay a huge role in what people actually do. Just my opinion of course.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 2:54 pm
by DharmaN00b
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:55 pm
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:58 am

Well, maybe. In my experience other lifestyle elements (such as do you have kids, do you have a full time job etc.) are equally or more important to how people make dietary decisions than moral or spiritual ones.
So those are examples of skill in means or expediency! ?

I imagine as a Moderator you have lots of experience being impartial and making judgements too, which makes you a good person to ask.
I just mean that while many of us may claim to make decision about things like diet based on high ethical or spiritual principles, for diet in particular life circumstances pay a huge role in what people actually do. Just my opinion of course.
With a sample size of twenty two (this thread?!) the perspective is going to be skewed, not to mention it only takes one person to shit in the pool. Of course that doesn't mean that people won't be pleased with their perspective, only that they don't see the wood for the trees (qualitative vs quantitative). Not only that, but their trees look the same as all the others, :reading: therefore all trees are the same.

All the same, as much as I love wisdom, I imagine I see where you're coming from.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:26 pm
by tkp67
would we be here discussing all of these practices and perspectives if our own contrasting states of being weren't a means of self-validation?

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:39 pm
by Yavana
tkp67 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 3:26 pm would we be here discussing all of these practices and perspectives if our own contrasting states of being weren't a means of self-validation?
You come for the low down on supreme, full blown enlightenment but stay for the chit-chat. It's like when, after many months in solitude, a fearless sramana comes down from the long trail to his mountain cave deep in the forest to quietly enjoy some coffee in a small cafe. He then finds himself also enjoying a biscotti and following the daytime talkshow banter of "The View."

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:12 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
DharmaN00b wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 2:54 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:55 pm
DharmaN00b wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 am

So those are examples of skill in means or expediency! ?

I imagine as a Moderator you have lots of experience being impartial and making judgements too, which makes you a good person to ask.
I just mean that while many of us may claim to make decision about things like diet based on high ethical or spiritual principles, for diet in particular life circumstances pay a huge role in what people actually do. Just my opinion of course.
With a sample size of twenty two (this thread?!) the perspective is going to be skewed, not to mention it only takes one person to shit in the pool. Of course that doesn't mean that people won't be pleased with their perspective, only that they don't see the wood for the trees (qualitative vs quantitative). Not only that, but their trees look the same as all the others, :reading: therefore all trees are the same.

All the same, as much as I love wisdom, I imagine I see where you're coming from.
My sample size is more "the people I've known and my own experiences", rather than simply the people in this thread.

I'm just saying that nearly all the diet-evangelists I know (be they vegan, veg, paleo, crossfit nutrition people, whatever) are always people whose life situations allow them the space to think in great detail about their diet. A lot of people simply don't have that orientation, because their life circumstances do not support such an effort, for all kinds of specific reasons.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:23 pm
by tkp67
Yavana wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 3:39 pm
tkp67 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 3:26 pm would we be here discussing all of these practices and perspectives if our own contrasting states of being weren't a means of self-validation?
You come for the low down on supreme, full blown enlightenment but stay for the chit-chat. It's like when, after many months in solitude, a fearless sramana comes down from the long trail to his mountain cave deep in the forest to quietly enjoy some coffee in a small cafe. He then finds himself also enjoying a biscotti and following the daytime talkshow banter of "The View."
I have climbed so many mountains and come to find I have still yet to understand the meaning of mountain itself as if the ones prior where constructs of my mine outside true reality and yet through all that delusion I like to think all that" working out" prepared me to see the real thing.

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 8:57 pm
by DharmaN00b
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 4:12 pm
I'm just saying that nearly all the diet-evangelists I know (be they vegan, veg, paleo, crossfit nutrition people, whatever) are always people whose life situations allow them the space to think in great detail about their diet. A lot of people simply don't have that orientation, because their life circumstances do not support such an effort, for all kinds of specific reasons.
Yes, you're right!

Also, what you write sounds similar to the rare human rebirth pheonomomenon. The human being is in a unique situation so as to afford a chance of liberation from samsara. :cry:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 am
by SunWuKong
dzogchungpa wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:08 am Oh MAN, this is going to be good.


:popcorn:
It’s not good, because the NIH link is not even about veganism. DGA came to the debate with no evidence.

The original Ornish diet scientifically proved beyond a shadow of doubt that his diet lowers cholesterol and reduces heart disease. Ditto for Dr. Jenkins. Currently plant based diets are showing evidence of reducing cancer as well. I’ll follow up with the studies that actually pertain to these two diets, which are, among other things vegan.

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 am
by SunWuKong
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:08 am Oh MAN, this is going to be good.


:popcorn:
It’s not good, because the NIH link is not even about veganism. DGA came to the debate with no evidence.

The original Ornish diet scientifically proved beyond a shadow of doubt that his diet lowers cholesterol and reduces heart disease. Ditto for Dr. Jenkins. Currently plant based diets are showing evidence of reducing cancer as well. I’ll follow up with the studies that actually pertain to these two diets, which are, among other things vegan.
https://www.uclahealth.org/lifestyle-me ... Review.pdf

So, when prescribed by a doctor, some vegan diets are not an eating disorders. It's following a doctors orders to save your life.

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:35 am
by SunWuKong
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 am
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:08 am Oh MAN, this is going to be good.


:popcorn:
It’s not good, because the NIH link is not even about veganism. DGA came to the debate with no evidence.

The original Ornish diet scientifically proved beyond a shadow of doubt that his diet lowers cholesterol and reduces heart disease. Ditto for Dr. Jenkins. Currently plant based diets are showing evidence of reducing cancer as well. I’ll follow up with the studies that actually pertain to these two diets, which are, among other things vegan.
https://www.uclahealth.org/lifestyle-me ... Review.pdf

So, when prescribed by a doctor, some vegan diets are not an eating disorders. It's following a doctors orders to save your life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219620/

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:37 am
by SunWuKong
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:35 am
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 am
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 am

It’s not good, because the NIH link is not even about veganism. DGA came to the debate with no evidence.

The original Ornish diet scientifically proved beyond a shadow of doubt that his diet lowers cholesterol and reduces heart disease. Ditto for Dr. Jenkins. Currently plant based diets are showing evidence of reducing cancer as well. I’ll follow up with the studies that actually pertain to these two diets, which are, among other things vegan.
https://www.uclahealth.org/lifestyle-me ... Review.pdf

So, when prescribed by a doctor, some vegan diets are not an eating disorders. It's following a doctors orders to save your life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219620/
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02481466
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29807048

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:41 am
by SunWuKong
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:37 am
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:35 am
SunWuKong wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 am

https://www.uclahealth.org/lifestyle-me ... Review.pdf

So, when prescribed by a doctor, some vegan diets are not an eating disorders. It's following a doctors orders to save your life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219620/
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02481466
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29807048
This is what proofs look like. Vegan diets saving lives, and reducing deadly disease. No one is saying it is for everyone. No one is promoting a fad. Its just published science. Maybe DGA thought no one would look at other studies besides the one he posted. It's not a good debate, because he forgot to bring relevant proofs.