Great Vegan Debate

[Dharma Flower]

Since becoming vegetarian, I've been eating salads almost everyday, usually with nonfat ranch dressing. At first, I thought I might be vegan, until I realized that ranch dressing has milk in it. It seems way too demanding to be vegan, having to always scrutinize foods for trace amounts of animal products. Since the Buddha ate honey and dairy, I don't feel the need to be vegan.

[Dharma Flower]

At least in American culture, there's a perception that "real men" eat meat. Animal products, however, are one of the main causes of male impotence:

Conditions that affect the heart and its ability to pump blood well can cause impotence. Without enough blood flow to the penis, a person can’t achieve an erection.
Atherosclerosis, a condition that causes the blood vessels to become clogged, can cause impotence. High cholesterol and high blood pressure (hypertension) are also associated with increased risks for impotence.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... onditions5

The Massachusetts Male Aging Study found a direct connection between diet and ED. Men in the study who ate plenty of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and avoided red meat and processed grains, were less likely to experience ED.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... -and-diet2

The only source of dietary cholesterol is animal products, and atherosclerosis is caused by fatty deposits in our blood vessels.

[DharmaN00b]

A bit off topic here, but it's important to add that diet is not the only method to help control blood sugar and weight loss. Exercise is equally important; both are needed to obtain optimum results. Walking is the easiest and least expensive way to begin - no special equipment needed (except shoes with decent support).

FYI, Yes walking is very healthy but not the most efficient way to lose weight. It takes a lot of walking, sometimes past what is comfortable, convenient or enjoyable to achieve results. I know just enough of the science to inform you that walking is known as long slow distance. It's an aerobic activity that relies primarily on oxidative phosphorylation. What's important here is the oxygen system is a very efficient metabolic pathway in terms of producing ATP, which gets used and created as part of the KREBS cycle in cellular respiration.

In other words walking doesn't tax your energy system very much. What it does do is create a lot of oxidative stress, that potentially leads to DNA damage from free radicals. This means ageing at a faster than normal rate.

Now, non-oxidative metabolic pathways include creatine phosphate and glycogen. What you need to know here is that you don't get a lot of bang for your buck in terms of energy expenditure with anaerobic exercise, but you do get it quickly. The most effective form of exercise to take advantage of these systems is known as high intensity interval training, or HIIT for short. What you need to do is to exercise as hard and fast as you can for short bursts (30-60 seconds). The good news is that this only takes a few minutes of your time. You can do it with kettlebells, weights or even throw it in with your walking routine (Walking for 2 km/Sprinting or Running for 100-500 m).

Plus, you can take it easy at first doing just one round and build up to several rounds over time, so that you don't get too sore and stiff.
I write this in hope that at least one person will be able to make more efficient use of their energy and time.. and achieve their fitness goals.

[justsit]

A bit off topic here, but it's important to add that diet is not the only method to help control blood sugar and weight loss. Exercise is equally important; both are needed to obtain optimum results. Walking is the easiest and least expensive way to begin - no special equipment needed (except shoes with decent support).

FYI, Yes walking is very healthy but not the most efficient way to lose weight.

Yes, agree that higher output is more efficient and effective. My comments, though, are geared towards those who might be older and are just beginning to move toward a more healthy lifestyle, and are likely overweight and out of shape. A gradual increase in aerobic activity often has better long term outcomes for them versus starting out too fast, becoming discouraged, and completely stopping.

[DharmaN00b]

A more moderate strategy for weight loss- with gradual increases in output- does make a lot of sense.

This would also apply to dietary considerations. Carbohydrate depletion is a precursor to (ketosis), which is a prerequisite for fat loss, yes? Now, if you take away all carbs, particularly the starchy ones, muscle glycogen drops off the map. This means the trainee is suddenly breathing very hard in order to increase energy production, even while walking.

If instead we tweak carbohydrate intake and exercise output, as you suggest, the trainee is not dissuaded and does not feel out of their element. Further down the line benefits become visible.

[Grigoris]

BTW, I know plenty of vegans that are fat, so veganism is a weak excuse for an eating disorder since vegans can eat as much sugar and drink as much alcohol as they like.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

Something I forgot to mention is that the Okinawans have one of the highest life expediencies of any population in the world, and they live on mostly a vegan diet:

The traditional diet of the islanders contains 30% green and yellow vegetables. Although the traditional Japanese diet usually includes large quantities of rice, the traditional Okinawa diet consists of smaller quantities of rice; instead the staple is the purple-fleshed Okinawan sweet potato. The Okinawan diet has only 30% of the sugar and 15% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.[4]
The traditional diet also includes a tiny amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Pork is highly valued, yet eaten very rarely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

Contrary to the Atkins and paleo diets, the healthiest populations on the planet live on diets consisting of mostly complex carbohydrates.

[Ayu]

Thoughts?

Something I forgot to mention is that the Okinawans have one of the highest life expediencies of any population in the world, and they live on mostly a vegan diet:

The traditional diet of the islanders contains 30% green and yellow vegetables. Although the traditional Japanese diet usually includes large quantities of rice, the traditional Okinawa diet consists of smaller quantities of rice; instead the staple is the purple-fleshed Okinawan sweet potato. The Okinawan diet has only 30% of the sugar and 15% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.[4]
The traditional diet also includes a tiny amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Pork is highly valued, yet eaten very rarely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

Contrary to the Atkins and paleo diets, the healthiest populations on the planet live on diets consisting of mostly complex carbohydrates.

Well, finally after all your arguments you can read in this very wikipedia article in a nutshell what a good diet has to contain:

The dietary intake of Okinawans compared to other Japanese circa 1950 shows that Okinawans consumed: fewer total calories (1785 vs. 2068), less polyunsaturated fat (4.8% of calories vs. 8%), less rice (154g vs. 328g), significantly less wheat, barley and other grains (38g vs. 153g), less sugars (3g vs. 8g), more legumes (71g vs. 55g), significantly less fish (15g vs. 62g), significantly less meat and poultry (3g vs. 11g), less eggs (1g vs. 7g), less dairy (<1g vs. 8g), much more sweet potatoes (849g vs. 66g), less other potatoes (2g vs. 47g), less fruit (<1g vs. 44g), and no pickled vegetables (0g vs. 42g). [4] In short, the Okinawans circa 1950 ate sweet potatoes for 849 grams of the 1262 grams of food that they consumed, which constituted 69% of their total calories.[4]

This means, they do not concentrate on a onesided diet. Their food contains a bit of everything and the most important are vegetables. This is all people tried to explain to you since weeks.

[Dharma Flower]

This means, they do not concentrate on a onesided diet. Their food contains a bit of everything and the most important are vegetables. This is all people tried to explain to you since weeks.

The Okinawans eat a mostly whole food plant-based diet, with fish and meat as either a rare delicacy to be eaten occasionally, or as a small garnish for a mostly plant-based meal. This is a far cry from the typical American diet, which is based almost entirely on meats and processed foods.

For those who aren't able to control their meat consumption as well as the Okinawans do, studies have shown that it would be healthier for the prevention and reversal of disease to live on a strictly vegan or vegetarian diet than on the typical American diet.

The traditional Okinawan diet was about 80 percent carbohydrates. Before 1940 Okinawans also consumed fish at least three times per week together with seven servings of vegetables and maybe one or two servings of grain per day. They also ate two servings of flavonoid-rich soy, usually in the form of tofu. They didn’t eat much fruit; they enjoyed a few eggs a week. Dairy and meat represented only about 3 percent of their calories. On special occasions, usually during the Lunar New Year, people butchered the family pig and feasted on pork...

Following the war, western influences — and economic prosperity — crept into traditional life and food habits changed. Okinawans doubled their rice consumption, and bread, virtually unknown before, also crept in. Milk consumption increased; meat, eggs, and poultry consumption increased more than seven-fold. Between 1949 and 1972 Okinawans’ daily intake increased by 400 calories. They were consuming more than 200 calories per day more than they needed — like Americans. Cancers of the lung, breast, and colon almost doubled.

Yet older Okinawans, whose diets had solidified before that time period, are the world’s longest-lived people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-buett ... 12042.html

Studies have also shown that Adventists, whose religion recommends a vegetarian diet, live longer, and with fewer diet-related diseases, than the general American population:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies
https://www.livescience.com/37102-veget ... onger.html

[Dharma Flower]

[Their food contains a bit of everything...

Whether we like it or not, the Buddha taught that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat, and instead that we should treat animals if they were our mother in a past life. This is why, throughout history, there's been a strong tradition of Buddhist vegetarianism.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

If anyone has a "disorder," it's those who make a living out of the torture and slaughter of animals.

phpBB [video]

I don’t agree with PETA about everything, but the way that animals are treated by the meat industry is sociopathic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald ... to_animals

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

According to Master Sheng-Yen, the way that animals are treated and killed by the meat industry is bad for our health, because it contaminates the meat with toxins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unD2kFO4SXI

The available science bears this out:

But there's a side to this that's more alarming than the threat of tasteless meat. The Journal of Animal Science and researchers at the University of Milan's Faculty of Veterinary Medicine recently confirmed that fear experienced during slaughter significantly elevates meat's levels of stress hormones—adrenaline, cortisol, and other steroids.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... in/244127/

Cortisol is one of the main causes of depression and other health problems:

The stress hormone, cortisol, is public health enemy number one. Scientists have known for years that elevated cortisol levels: interfere with learning and memory, lower immune function and bone density, increase weight gain, blood pressure, cholesterol, heart disease... The list goes on and on.

Chronic stress and elevated cortisol levels also increase risk for depression, mental illness, and lower life expectancy. This week, two separate studies were published in Science linking elevated cortisol levels as a potential trigger for mental illness and decreased resilience—especially in adolescence.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... enemy-no-1

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

When I learned that egg whites and nonfat dairy do not cause the same health problems that meat causes, I realized that I wouldn't want to be vegan.

Q: Other plant-based advocates recommend against all animal products, including nonfat dairy and even egg white. Why does Ornish Lifestyle Medicine allow these foods?

A: It is true that a plant-based approach is not only a powerful, healthy choice for you individually, but it’s also a powerful, healthy choice for your planet. Eating a plant-based diet decreases your carbon footprint. When Dr. Ornish began researching a lifestyle approach to reversing heart disease 35 years ago, it was based on a plant-based, whole food approach; however it did include limited options for egg whites and non-fat dairy. Randomized, controlled trials showed that limited amounts of these optional foods, which may add enjoyment, convenience, and comfort, do not decrease any of the health benefits one would get from a wholly plant-based diet.
https://www.ornish.com/zine/animal-prot ... conut-oil/

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

Another thing worth mentioning, for those concerned about the environment, is the biggest cause of greenhouse gas emissions is animal agriculture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_c ... #Livestock

[DGA]

Thoughts?

Another thing worth mentioning, for those concerned about the environment, is the biggest cause of greenhouse gas emissions is animal agriculture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_c ... #Livestock

Yes, that's true, but also beside the point. This is a discussion about veganism and eating disorders. Specifically, my claim that veganism either is an eating disorder, or is intimately tied up with eating disorders.

Which eating disorder?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present: orthorexia nervosa

https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org ... ia-nervosa

https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/ap ... -unhealthy

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/880916



^^real butter on that popcorn^^

[justsit]

Your original question was, "is it possible to be a vegan without having an eating disorder?"

The answer to that is yes, it is possible. The citations you noted in your last post clearly state that Veganism is not listed in DSM-5 and has not been defined as a disorder. The first article also notes "Orthorexia nervosa is not currently recognized as a clinical diagnosis in the DSM-5, but many people struggle with symptoms associated with this term. (italics mine) Many =/= all; thus some do not struggle with symptoms and do not have an eating disorder.

The second article delineates that there is no definition for that "diagnosis" and more research is needed. Bottom line - if you can't define what it is, how can you call it a diagnosis? Jury still out.

The third article required site membership, so I was not able to access that.

There really are vegans out there who are not obsessed but merely careful. I'm a bit curious as to why this is apparently a matter of some concern for you. Seriously, why do you care if anyone is vegan?

[Strive]

Your original question was, "is it possible to be a vegan without having an eating disorder?"

The answer to that is yes, it is possible. The citations you noted in your last post clearly state that Veganism is not listed in DSM-5 and has not been defined as a disorder. The first article also notes "Orthorexia nervosa is not currently recognized as a clinical diagnosis in the DSM-5, but many people struggle with symptoms associated with this term. (italics mine) Many =/= all; thus some do not struggle with symptoms and do not have an eating disorder.

The second article delineates that there is no definition for that "diagnosis" and more research is needed. Bottom line - if you can't define what it is, how can you call it a diagnosis? Jury still out.

The third article required site membership, so I was not able to access that.

There really are vegans out there who are not obsessed but merely careful. I'm a bit curious as to why this is apparently a matter of some concern for you. Seriously, why do you care if anyone is vegan?

good points bro

[emaho]

[StrangeGuy]

Food for religious people food can really be a tough one. For the non religious, who have accepted moralism as a substitute religion, turning it into an ideology the same difficulty perseveres. I think it really should come down to how you want to be involved with life and not trying to impose the own liking & culture etc on others.When morality & ideology come into the room, spirituality flies out the window.

Look here at the Indian Guru talking about food:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv6DlBMPMw4

In Buddhism, didn't the Amagandha Sutta state that taking life, beating, wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving, worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat. I think Master Sheng Yeng gives a good summary here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aP7aexMJ9A

[seeker242]

Which eating disorder?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present: orthorexia nervosa

I doubt someone who eats french fries and coca cola for dinner is suffering from orthorexia nervosa! Coca cola isn't healthy at all and neither is french fries, but they're both vegan! Most health conscious people also don't go eat an entire pint of non-dairy ice cream, after they just finished their dinner of french fries and coca cola.