Great Vegan Debate

[DGA]

Or veganism coincides with eating disorders

Or veganism converges with eating disorders

Or veganism opens onto eating disorders, like a gateway drug

The point is that the two are very difficult to tease apart, and in a practical sense, are difficult to distinguish from each other. It's possible to have an eating disorder such as anorexia without being a vegan, but is it possible to be a vegan without having an eating disorder?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402905/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/when-vegan ... g-disorder

Thoughts?

[dzogchungpa]

Oh MAN, this is going to be good.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I'll go one further and say most people who obsess long term over diet details (rather than just planning, etc.) are often in one way or another, on the road to an eating disorder. Goes for Paleo as much as for Vegans. Tell ya what, if you find Vegans uniquely annoying go spend some time with a Crossfitter on a Paleo diet..you will see there is nothing unique about Veganism in this regard, other than the (sometimes spurious) moral claims of course.

The fact that we are living around so many choices, with access to a mind boggling number of foods, and this obsession with diet...is not a coincidence.

The ongoing "debate" about just what is a healthy and/or ethical diet is an interesting one, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that usually when people debate this, it is not health they are concerned about, not really. Maybe not ethics either, since they tend not to apply the same standards with pretty much anything else they buy, only food. It's something deeper having to do with neuroses and fear about moral culpability, unconscious belief that certain substances are "tainted" etc.

[emaho]

I think I'd even go so far as to say that being obsessed with other peoples' obsessions is actually an obsession...

[dzogchungpa]

I think I'd even go so far as to say that being obsessed with other peoples' obsessions is actually an obsession...

Yo, duh. Being obsessed with anything is an obsession by definition.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I think I'd even go so far as to say that being obsessed with other peoples' obsessions is actually an obsession...

So is being obsessed with other people being obsessed with other people's obsessions, tbh.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

I'm vegetarian, not vegan. Having said that, the Surangama Sutra teaches veganism:

"How... can you eat the flesh of living beings and so pretend to be my disciple?...

"All bhiksus [monks] who live purely and all Bodhisattvas always refrain even from walking on the grass; how can they agree to uproot it? How then can those who practice great compassion feed on the flesh and blood of living beings? If bhiksus do not wear garments made of silk, boots of local leather and furs, and refrain from consuming milk, cream and butter, they will really be liberated from the worldly...
http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/art- ... dhism.html

[emaho]

I think I'd even go so far as to say that being obsessed with other peoples' obsessions is actually an obsession...

Yo, duh. Being obsessed with anything is an obsession by definition.

Finally somebody who understands me!

[Kim O'Hara]

I'll go one further and say most people who obsess long term over diet details (rather than just planning, etc.) are often in one way or another, on the road to an eating disorder. Goes for Paleo as much as for Vegans. Tell ya what, if you find Vegans uniquely annoying go spend some time with a Crossfitter on a Paleo diet..you will see there is nothing unique about Veganism in this regard, other than the (sometimes spurious) moral claims of course.

The fact that we are living around so many choices, with access to a mind boggling number of foods, and this obsession with diet...is not a coincidence.

The ongoing "debate" about just what is a healthy and/or ethical diet is an interesting one, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that usually when people debate this, it is not health they are concerned about, not really. Maybe not ethics either, since they tend not to apply the same standards with pretty much anything else they buy, only food. It's something deeper having to do with neuroses and fear about moral culpability, unconscious belief that certain substances are "tainted" etc.

I think there's a lot of truth in this. The difference, for me, between caring about a healthy diet and having another underlying agenda is absolutism - the difference between "I don't think meat and animal products are good for us so I don't usually eat them," and, "I'm vegan not vegetarian so I'm never going to eat anything that came from an animal."


Kim

[Mantrik]

Odd.........I find meat eaters obsess about their food far more, and I can't find a much more obvious mental disorder than the desire to slaughter other beings.

There is a subtle difference......being vegan in cultures where buying suitable food is difficult necessitates a close focus on diet and food sources. Being an obsessive meat eater appears to me to be more about desirous attachment. Of course I can only speak from my own experience.

Also, the poor health of those addicted to gluttony is a national crisis for the NHS here in the UK, whereas those addicted to eating less for various reasons are unlikely to bankrupt the nation. Both seem equally unable to control their own eating, however, so there may not be so much difference in the susceptibility, only in the precise individual weaknesses and societal pressures.

[seeker242]

Thoughts?

That veganism is not a diet, but a lifestyle whose aim is to not support animal exploitation. Not wearing leather shoes and not purchasing products tested on animals doesn't have anything to do with food.

but is it possible to be a vegan without having an eating disorder?

Of course. Unless one considers "not exploiting animals" to be some kind of disorder.

[monktastic]

I dunno, this stereotypical hippie vegan who's doing it out of angst and is morally inconsistent isn't common in my world. Of my various vegan friends, most seem to live admirably compassionate lives in many facets. Choosing to reduce exploitation of animals for clothing or food appears to be a spontaneous expression of something quite beautiful and remarkable in them. I can appreciate the desire to find something to criticize in it though. Buddha knows I ain't free of that....

[justsit]

Obesity is an eating disorder as well, and one with far greater personal and societal negative effects than a few vegans might produce.

"...In 2013 the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) found that 27.6% of American citizens were obese. The organization estimates that 3/4 of the American population will likely be overweight or obese by 2020.[13] The latest figures from the CDC show that more than one-third (34.9% or 78.6 million) of U.S. adults are obese[14] and 17% for children and adolescents aged 2–19 years.[15]

Obesity has been cited as a contributing factor to approximately 100,000–400,000 deaths in the United States per year[16] and has increased health care use and expenditures,[17][18][19][20] costing society an estimated $117 billion in direct (preventive, diagnostic, and treatment services related to weight) and indirect (absenteeism, loss of future earnings due to premature death) costs.[21] This exceeds health care costs associated with smoking[20] and accounts for 6% to 12% of national health care expenditures in the United States.[22]..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_i ... ted_States

Even if these figures are somewhat inflated, they still indicate a significant problem costing all of society. Frankly, this is of greater concern than the half of one percent of the USA population that are vegan.

[odysseus]

Buddha asked me to be vegetarian, so I try. But I broke down the other day and bought a piece of meat. lol

Seriously, vegan is just too extreme. Fish is good, and eggs and dairy are not a problem. We are blessed by these animals who give us such good food without harming them.

[KathyLauren]

I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years, a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 20 years. I have hung out on vegan, vegetarian and Buuddhist discussion forums since the very early days of the world-wide web, and have seen a lot (I mean a **LOT**) of dust-ups on this topic.

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans. Kind of bizarre when you think about it. What could be more naturally Buddhist than compassion for animals?

To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[odysseus]

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans.

This must be new Western Buddhists. They don't want to give up the luxury they were born with. I applaud the vegans, but it is just too extreme. I didn' t say it was harmful.

[CedarTree]

I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years, a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 20 years. I have hung out on vegan, vegetarian and Buuddhist discussion forums since the very early days of the world-wide web, and have seen a lot (I mean a **LOT**) of dust-ups on this topic.

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans. Kind of bizarre when you think about it. What could be more naturally Buddhist than compassion for animals?

To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

"To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!"

This sums up the whole thing.

Immaturity, lack of how to connect with people and dialogue are not about diet choices they are deeper then that. Come on people.

And as said above veganism is to be practiced by Buddhists if it is healthy to do so.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years, a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 20 years. I have hung out on vegan, vegetarian and Buuddhist discussion forums since the very early days of the world-wide web, and have seen a lot (I mean a **LOT**) of dust-ups on this topic.

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans. Kind of bizarre when you think about it. What could be more naturally Buddhist than compassion for animals?

To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

I've seen Buddhist vegans post unprovoked on DJKR's FB page about how he is such an awful teacher for eating meat etc. I see that kind of behavior regularly, and have seen people intentionally drive a wedge into Dharma discussions by bring up their awesome, super-ethical dietary choices, even when it's not related to the conversation.

I think it's likely that some non-vegan Buddhists are a bit sick of the self-congratulatory attitude of a few people (and yeah, I know it's not all) people who think that their diet=the sum total of one's ethics. I don't doubt it can be hard to be on the Vegan side and be misunderstood, but I think if you pay attention to how a few of your louder compatriots act towards practitioners who don't share their dietary choices, it becomes pretty obvious it's a two-way street.

And veganism -can- definitely be part of an eating disorder, that is simply clinically true. So can Paleo, etc...

Extreme dietary choices lends themselves to, and are found frequently in people with eating disorders, again, simply true, not much room for debate on that. Does veganism -have- to be an eating disorder? No, of course not.

[DGA]

Did you ever notice that vegan food is often unpalatable and, not infrequently, unpleasant to the sense organs?

before, during, and after digestion, if you know what I mean.

I'm talking about the farting. Vegans can be farty, you know.

[Thomas Amundsen]

I've seen Buddhist vegans post unprovoked on DJKR's FB page about how he is such an awful teacher for eating meat etc. I see that kind of behavior regularly, and have seen people intentionally drive a wedge into Dharma discussions by bring up their awesome, super-ethical dietary choices, even when it's not related to the conversation.

I think it's likely that some non-vegan Buddhists are a bit sick of the self-congratulatory attitude of a few people (and yeah, I know it's not all) people who think that their diet=the sum total of one's ethics. I don't doubt it can be hard to be on the Vegan side and be misunderstood, but I think if you pay attention to how a few of your louder compatriots act towards practitioners who don't share their dietary choices, it becomes pretty obvious it's a two-way street.

And veganism -can- definitely be part of an eating disorder, that is simply clinically true. So can Paleo, etc...

I've had a vegan guy from Nepal tell me that Buddha taught veganism and that all of the sects that allow meat or dairy eating are corrupt. He said that all the true Buddhists know about this and think that food like meat and eggs are spiritually damaging. Of course he wasn't Buddhist himself. Yea, it can be annoying when people co-opt a religion based on diet.