Giovanni wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:10 pm
KathyLauren wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:44 pm
Eating meat that is pure in three ways is a neutral karma, like drinking water and most of our activities. It can be transformed through intention. It can be compassionate. One merely needs the method to make it so.
Let's call that what it is: magical thinking. There's a spell you can cast to transform it. Abracadabra, shazam!!
I realize that magical thinking is endemic in most religions, but it does not meet the intellectual standards that we need in the modern world. There's a spell you can cast to make climate change go away. Just chant the mantra of economic necessity. Etc., etc., etc.. It doesn't matter if the spell can be found in scriptures. I don't believe in magic, and neither should anyone else.
You craved it, therefore you demanded it, therefore the store stocked it, therefore the butcher killed it. No amount of magic can break that chain of karma. The killing was done for you, even if the butcher didn't know who you were.
Om mani padme hum
And here I think is the basic problem. You are suggesting that a system that evolved in an entirely different culture and which has been passed down through the ages and whose sole reason for existing was to liberate beings enmeshed in Samsara should conform to the intellectual standards that have shaped the modern world. But the modern world is just another manifestation of Samsara. You can reject the teachings of Vajrayana but by definition that means that you will forever stand outside of its teachings.
You are on or off the bus. If off it then do not attempt to guess it’s destination.
No one is attempting to modify your diet. No one particularly cares what you choose to eat or why.
The model here does conform to your logic or sensibilities. It’s about ending Samsara in all forms, human or other forms of animal.
With respect, I find this type of argument very un-buddhist, non-vajrayanist and dangerously myopic.
The teachings, including Vajryana, were also propogated and utilised within the ancient realms of samsara. You may consider that the original conception and receipt of them were not, of course. But that could also be considered magical thinking. Either way, from this distance in both time and factual knoweledge; for us unelightened ones, it is something only to be taken on faith until, and if ever, actualized in personal, empirical and irrefutable evidential experience.
As for the idea that one stands outside of the teachings due to doubt and questioning, this is entirely against the encouraged idea of healthy investigation designed to remove obstacles of doubt. Moreover, without such enquiries, the teachers would be out of a job because all that would remain would be commanded edicts from on high.
There would of course always remain some fanatical adherents satisfied not to think for themselves and faithfully led down the kind of paths familar to us in religious and political history.
Finally, the idea that people do not care about other peoples' choices when it comes to diet extending to the treatment of animals and their consumption along with all the other enviromental questions raised, is demonstrably untrue. The very existence of the interesting debates and intellectual challenges raised both in this thread and currently abounding in the world around us, are clearly proving otherwise. Whether you
give them personal validity or not is another issue for yourself to consider.