Great Vegan Debate

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
Giovanni
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Giovanni »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:21 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:52 pm

No, actually that is not correct. Purchasing meat = supporting more violence against sentient beings than purchasing carrots does. And you don't need to kill them yourself because the animals don't care who is killing them.
No, it really doesn't. We do not actually have any firm figures for the number of animals and insects that are killed in agriculture, accidentally or otherwise.
Yes, it really does. It does not take a genius to figure out that if you eat a modest amount of plants directly, rather than feeding large amounts of plants to animals and then killing all the animals, It's just basic common sense that less animals are harmed in the process. You don't need firm figures to figure that out.
Giovanni wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:10 pm No one particularly cares what you choose to eat or why.
Except for the farm animals that are going to be slaughtered tomorrow, they care.
Slaughtered animals live a Samsaric existence. Animals that die of old age live a Samsaric existence.
The best thing we can do for them is become Realised. And people have become Realised irrespective of what they eat.
Including the Buddha.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:05 pm Slaughtered animals live a Samsaric existence. Animals that die of old age live a Samsaric existence.
The best thing we can do for them is become Realised. And people have become Realised irrespective of what they eat.
Including the Buddha.
Sure, but that doesn't exactly change the fact that somebody does care what you eat or don't.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
n8pee
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by n8pee »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:41 pm As for the latter, it does not seem that he did, hence the prohibition against digging in the ground, etc.
Malcolm. Stop dangling your carrot in front of the vegans.
Giovanni
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Giovanni »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:34 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:05 pm Slaughtered animals live a Samsaric existence. Animals that die of old age live a Samsaric existence.
The best thing we can do for them is become Realised. And people have become Realised irrespective of what they eat.
Including the Buddha.
Sure, but that doesn't exactly change the fact that somebody does care what you eat or don't.
OK I will try to be clearer in my meaning.
I don’t care what you eat and I don’t care what you think about what I eat.
There is a bigger game here. Concern about what we eat is just one thing we transcend when we bring and end to our birth and death.
frankie
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by frankie »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:10 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:44 pm Eating meat that is pure in three ways is a neutral karma, like drinking water and most of our activities. It can be transformed through intention. It can be compassionate. One merely needs the method to make it so.
Let's call that what it is: magical thinking. There's a spell you can cast to transform it. Abracadabra, shazam!!

I realize that magical thinking is endemic in most religions, but it does not meet the intellectual standards that we need in the modern world. There's a spell you can cast to make climate change go away. Just chant the mantra of economic necessity. Etc., etc., etc.. It doesn't matter if the spell can be found in scriptures. I don't believe in magic, and neither should anyone else.

You craved it, therefore you demanded it, therefore the store stocked it, therefore the butcher killed it. No amount of magic can break that chain of karma. The killing was done for you, even if the butcher didn't know who you were.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
And here I think is the basic problem. You are suggesting that a system that evolved in an entirely different culture and which has been passed down through the ages and whose sole reason for existing was to liberate beings enmeshed in Samsara should conform to the intellectual standards that have shaped the modern world. But the modern world is just another manifestation of Samsara. You can reject the teachings of Vajrayana but by definition that means that you will forever stand outside of its teachings.
You are on or off the bus. If off it then do not attempt to guess it’s destination.
No one is attempting to modify your diet. No one particularly cares what you choose to eat or why.
The model here does conform to your logic or sensibilities. It’s about ending Samsara in all forms, human or other forms of animal.

With respect, I find this type of argument very un-buddhist, non-vajrayanist and dangerously myopic.

The teachings, including Vajryana, were also propogated and utilised within the ancient realms of samsara. You may consider that the original conception and receipt of them were not, of course. But that could also be considered magical thinking. Either way, from this distance in both time and factual knoweledge; for us unelightened ones, it is something only to be taken on faith until, and if ever, actualized in personal, empirical and irrefutable evidential experience.

As for the idea that one stands outside of the teachings due to doubt and questioning, this is entirely against the encouraged idea of healthy investigation designed to remove obstacles of doubt. Moreover, without such enquiries, the teachers would be out of a job because all that would remain would be commanded edicts from on high.

There would of course always remain some fanatical adherents satisfied not to think for themselves and faithfully led down the kind of paths familar to us in religious and political history.

Finally, the idea that people do not care about other peoples' choices when it comes to diet extending to the treatment of animals and their consumption along with all the other enviromental questions raised, is demonstrably untrue. The very existence of the interesting debates and intellectual challenges raised both in this thread and currently abounding in the world around us, are clearly proving otherwise. Whether you give them personal validity or not is another issue for yourself to consider.
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:03 am OK I will try to be clearer in my meaning.
I don’t care what you eat and I don’t care what you think about what I eat.
There is a bigger game here. Concern about what we eat is just one thing we transcend when we bring and end to our birth and death.
Some people actually do care about the concerns and interests of the animals, especially the animals themselves. They most certainly do. There is a bigger game for you, which is really a very self centered view. there is not a bigger game for the animals being killed today. It's also a mistake to call it "concern about what we eat" because that is also a self centered view. The concern is the interest and concerns of the animals.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
frankie
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by frankie »

frankie wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:53 am
Giovanni wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:10 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:56 pm

you will forever stand outside of its teachings.
You are on or off the bus. If off it then do not attempt to guess it’s destination.


One last point on this, it's a pretty deleterious attitude to take whereby you feel qualified to tell people who is or may not be on 'the bus or not'.

You might consider that no matter how intellectually or spiritually advanced we consider ourselves to be, nobody is the driver of the bus and is in no position to either sell tickets for it or to kick people off, when they disagree or displease us. We may begin to fantasize that we are in such a position and some mischeivous Guru, trying to provide us with some life lessons in disillusionment, or simply attempting to get us off their pestered back, may even have told us we are. Nobody gets chucked out of the Buddhist/Vajrayana bus...even should it take a million years for us to reach our destination.

Buddhism, Vajrayana...these are epic and magnificent vehicles for realisation. Nevertheless, they are constructed upayas. Vajrayana is not the thing, it is a skillful means to come to realise the thing. Nobody owns it, nobody ever could, and certainly doesn't get to invite or chuck people on or off the dependeant-arising/illusory skillful means bus towards enlightenment.
Giovanni
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Giovanni »

I certainly am in no position to tell anyone whether they are on or off the Vajrayana bus.
However there is one objective entrance level criterion.
That is Refuge with a genuine Vajrayana lineage holder.
Taking such Refuge does not guarantee a uncomplicated view of ethical questions that arise for Vajrayana practitioners. But the absence of such Refuge means that those who are on the Vajrayana path need to be very careful about speaking about Vajrayana issues in general with those who do not have the basic entry level requirement.
This no triumphalism or a claim of superiority. Neither does it mean that there is universal agreement about all issues across all Vajrayana a schools. It does mean however that real authentic discussion of Vajrayana ethics and practice can only happen within the Vajrayana.
Of course I do not know who here has taken Refuge. Only they know that.🙂
Giovanni
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Giovanni »

I think describing the subtleties of the interplay between Vajrayana teacher and student as “magical thinking” is show a total misunderstanding of the processes involved. Even if the person doing the describing has read some books and attended a few teachings as an observer.
frankie
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by frankie »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:51 pm I certainly am in no position to tell anyone whether they are on or off the Vajrayana bus.
However there is one objective entrance level criterion.
That is Refuge with a genuine Vajrayana lineage holder.
Taking such Refuge does not guarantee a uncomplicated view of ethical questions that arise for Vajrayana practitioners. But the absence of such Refuge means that those who are on the Vajrayana path need to be very careful about speaking about Vajrayana issues in general with those who do not have the basic entry level requirement.
This no triumphalism or a claim of superiority. Neither does it mean that there is universal agreement about all issues across all Vajrayana a schools. It does mean however that real authentic discussion of Vajrayana ethics and practice can only happen within the Vajrayana.
Of course I do not know who here has taken Refuge. Only they know that.🙂
Yes, there is certainly the availability of taking refuge with (non bus owning teachers) involved. Which doesn't always involve a lessening of complicated relative wordly views that are also important and necessary to appreciate as referential conduits towards understanding non-dual absolute perspectives.

We may feel reasonably secure in not breaching certain vajrayana protocols by dint of mod control and also their ability to communicate, if required, with the likes of Malcolm and others who have diligently and kindly spent years studying the minutie of such things, in order that we are not dammned to all sorts of ghastly and unimaginable horrors. Athough, even there, you might consider being a little forgiving as such things are more often done in complete motivational innocence.

The refuge point you are making seems off beam...perhaps it's the beginning of another thread you'd like to create?

If I was a little hard on you Giovanni, then I apologise. It was only that I sensed you beginning to meander down a path I'm sure not worthy of you.
frankie
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by frankie »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:36 pm I think describing the subtleties of the interplay between Vajrayana teacher and student as “magical thinking” is show a total misunderstanding of the processes involved. Even if the person doing the describing has read some books and attended a few teachings as an observer.
I guess that would depend on who the teacher and/or student were. Otherwise, no argument from me on that.

The second point seems to be some sort of an implied (insult?) at an unspecified target.

You could just choose to move on Giovanni?
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Sādhaka
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Sādhaka »

One large animal can feed a family for weeks if not months.

Now imagine all the small creatures that die in the harvesting of the grains you eat each day over those weeks or months.

One rebuttal to this I’ve seen is that the cattle and so forth that are herded trample many small creatures during their lifetime, however I doubt as many are harmed by that one cow or sheep a family can live on for months as are killed during harvesting of grains.

I respect decisions to be vegan or vegetarian; however it does not look like it can be said that there is less killing involved there.

And I am 100% against factory-farming; and do also wish that samsara wasn’t based on life taking life in terms of physical-sustenance.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Giovanni
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Giovanni »

Sādhaka wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:25 pm One large animal can feed a family for weeks if not months.

Now imagine all the small creatures that die in the harvesting of the grains you eat each day over those weeks or months.

One rebuttal to this I’ve seen is that the cattle and so forth that are herded trample many small creatures during their lifetime, however I doubt as many are harmed by that one cow or sheep a family can live on for months as are killed during harvesting of grains.

I respect decisions to be vegan or vegetarian; however it does not look like it can be said that there is less killing involved there.

And I am 100% against factory-farming; and do also wish that samsara wasn’t based on life taking life in terms of physical-sustenance.
Samye ling in Britain attempted to impose a meat free regime on visitors. I heard that the result is an increase in McDonald’s cartons in the monastery trash..In a previous regime at that same monastery the Abbot had large freezers installed so that they could store whole carcasses in order to cut down the number of sentient beings dying to feed the monastery..
But it appears that western logic overturned (one strand of) Buddhist logic in that matter. Where would traditional Buddhism be without white guys to put them straight… :smile:
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

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