Reflections and conclusions

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Ivan A
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Reflections and conclusions

Post by Ivan A »

I have a rather difficult question. I understand that Zen Buddhism says that the truth cannot be known and transmitted through words and reflections. I would like to know a little about something else. By analogy with Tibetan Buddhism, in which there is a scheme - first listening to the teachings - then reflecting on what you have heard - then applying it in practice. Many aspects, such as taking refuge in the Three Treasures, first need to generate a firm belief in what it means, and this is done in Tibetan Buddhism through deep reflection. How is conviction generated in Zen Buddhism? After all, the Buddha said not to take anything for granted, without proof for yourself. Is there any practice of any reflections and conclusions in Zen at all, or are any questions related to logic completely dismissed and everything rests on zazen? In many books about Zen Buddhism, there is only talk about the rejection of logic and reflection. Then how and through what method to conduct understanding? Again, I repeat, I am not about the knowledge of the truth by reflection, I am about thinking about various aspects, such as suffering, impermanence, compassion, love.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I’ve heard it said that zen awakening is like lightning hitting a tree. When it hits, it hits.
But you still have to grow the tree
or else there is nothing for the lightning to hit.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by reiun »

Ivan A wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:23 pm How is conviction generated in Zen Buddhism?
This is accomplished primarily through the guidance of a teacher, and steadfast practice which builds conviction.
Is there any practice of any reflections and conclusions in Zen at all, or are any questions related to logic completely dismissed and everything rests on zazen? . . . Then how and through what method to conduct understanding?
My heart teacher was Rinzai. Koan method is conclusive: there is no faking. Zazen is the medium for koan work. In Soto, zazen is Shusho Itto per Dogen: "oneness and equality of practice and realization".
(https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key ... erms07.pdf)
narhwal90
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by narhwal90 »

I wouldn't say logic is rejected, Zen seems more like throwing a fishing net into a lawnmower. You have to start using the mind in other ways, and as suggested, with a teacher. DIY Zen, for me at least, was reading stuff and thinking I understood some of it; face-to-face zen is a lot different.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Ivan A wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:23 pm... are any questions related to logic completely dismissed and everything rests on zazen? In many books about Zen Buddhism, there is only talk about the rejection of logic and reflection.
The extreme "anti-logic" characterization of Zen is distorted but depressingly common.

Consider for example the following words of Master Dogen from his work Sansui Gyo:
‘Nowadays in great Sung China there is a certain group of unreliable fellows who have now formed such a crowd that they cannot be defeated by a small group of real people. They say that this talk of the East Mountain moving over the water, and such stories as Master Nansen's Sickle, are stories which cannot be understood rationally. Their idea is as follows: "A story that is dependent on any kind of thoughtful consideration cannot be a Zen story of the Buddhist patriarchs. But stories that cannot be understood rationally are indeed the Buddhist patriarchs stories. This is why such things as Master Obaku's use of the staff and Master Rinzai's cry of katsu, which are beyond rational understanding and unrelated to intellectual consideration, represent the great enlightenment [that existed] even before the sprouting of creation. The reason that many of the teaching methods of past masters employed words that cut through confusion was that [their teachings] were beyond rational understanding."

Those who say such things have never met a true master and they have no eyes of real Buddhist study; they are just little pups who do not deserve to be discussed. For the last two or three hundred years in China there have been many such demons, many such shavelings like the band of six. It is so pitiful that the great truth of the Buddhist Patriarch has gone to ruin. Their understanding cannot even match that of the sravaka in Hinayana Buddhism; they are even more stupid than non-Buddhists. They are not laymen, they are not monks, they are not human beings, and they are not gods in heaven; they are more stupid than animals that study Buddhism. What these shavelings call incomprehensible stories are incomprehensible only to them; the Buddhist patriarchs were not like that. We should not fail to study the concrete path by which the Buddhist patriarchs understand, just because [the path] is not understandable to [certain people]. If [the stories] were ultimately beyond rational understanding, their own reasoning now must also be wide of the mark."
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Astus
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by Astus »

Zen is not about reducing everything to silent sitting, that would be fairly meaningless, but rather all Zen schools and lineages are based on the whole of Buddhism and accept the Tripitaka as the true words of the perfectly awakened Buddha. From a Soto perspective look at this short text that is used as a summary of the teachings made up mainly of quotes from Dogen: The Meaning of Practice and Verification (Shushōgi 修証義).

On the topic of taking refuge in the Three Jewels there is a complete chapter in the Shobogenzo titled Kie-sanbo in vol. 4 of BDK ed. p. 235ff.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Ivan A
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Re: Reflections and conclusions

Post by Ivan A »

My kind friends! I'm very grateful to you for your answers! I have read and will study the links and materials that you have shared with me! Thank you for your responsiveness and kindness!
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