Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post Reply
dpcalder
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:57 am

Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by dpcalder »

It is my understanding I'm basically supposed to stare at the wall and think of non-thinking. I just want to get clarification: We do not stare "into" the wall, correct? It is just where we direct our eyes because it is least likely to distract us?
User avatar
oryoki
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by oryoki »

dpcalder wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 am It is my understanding I'm basically supposed to stare at the wall and think of non-thinking. I just want to get clarification: We do not stare "into" the wall, correct? It is just where we direct our eyes because it is least likely to distract us?
By the "wall" in the "wall gazing" is meant awareness. Please read "Three Types of Zazen by Kokyo Henkel". Wall gazing is type three.
https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com/uploads/ ... _zazen.pdf
Genjo Conan
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by Genjo Conan »

If you're interested in sitting shikantaza, I'd respectfully recommend finding a teacher. Not because it's an esoteric practice, but because, IMO and IME, it's a difficult practice, and it helps to have a guide.
Nobodyisspecial
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun May 09, 2021 3:20 am

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Hey dpcalder,

I reccomend trying to not think. Don't try to think of not thinking.

Just find a place to rest the eyes, don't stare into the wall. It is more about stilling the mind than interpreting the visualization. It is more about introspection than wall inspection. It is more about understanding consciousness than just doing nothing but looking at a wall.
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by jimmi »

dpcalder wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 am It is my understanding I'm basically supposed to stare at the wall and think of non-thinking. I just want to get clarification: We do not stare "into" the wall, correct? It is just where we direct our eyes because it is least likely to distract us?
One is in fact facing and recognizing the wall of one’s own resisting, grasping, fearful being.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:45 pm
Location: Southern Arizona/USA

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by desert_woodworker »

Wall-gazing is just gazing. In fact, maybe it's gazing "too high". Some teachers suggest gazing downwards at about a 45 degree angle, but with unfocused eyes (vision... ). Not staring at a tiny fixed (anxious) point. But taking-in a L-A-R-G-E area, the larger the better. And, then, just forgetting about doing that.

This gets easier and nearly "automatic" with repetition. So I'd say! (wonder if it's so for others).

But open-eyes seems to be the key. Samadhi can come on, even with open eyes. It's like "falling-asleep-with-open-eyes". But it's not falling asleep at all. I don't believe that even brain-scientists know what samadhi is, yet. The reason is that, there are many people in the West who could STUDY it (in Labs), but not many people who can exemplify it (who act as Western "subjects" for the researchers to study).

Gee, I hope this changes, soon. For all Beings.

--Joe
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by KeithA »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:54 am Wall-gazing is just gazing. In fact, maybe it's gazing "too high". Some teachers suggest gazing downwards at about a 45 degree angle, but with unfocused eyes (vision... ). Not staring at a tiny fixed (anxious) point. But taking-in a L-A-R-G-E area, the larger the better. And, then, just forgetting about doing that.

This gets easier and nearly "automatic" with repetition. So I'd say! (wonder if it's so for others).

But open-eyes seems to be the key. Samadhi can come on, even with open eyes. It's like "falling-asleep-with-open-eyes". But it's not falling asleep at all. I don't believe that even brain-scientists know what samadhi is, yet. The reason is that, there are many people in the West who could STUDY it (in Labs), but not many people who can exemplify it (who act as Western "subjects" for the researchers to study).

Gee, I hope this changes, soon. For all Beings.

--Joe
Haha! Another zen refugee has made it here. Good to “see” you again, Joe They barely tolerate us here, but I have learned an awful lot lurking around.

🙏
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
Matylda
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by Matylda »

dpcalder wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 am It is my understanding I'm basically supposed to stare at the wall and think of non-thinking. I just want to get clarification: We do not stare "into" the wall, correct? It is just where we direct our eyes because it is least likely to distract us?
No you this is not 'stare into' the wall.

Japanese MENPEKI only means that you face a wall while sitting in zazen. In fact it does not matter if you sit back to the wall or front/face to the wall. Think non-thinking is wording of great enlightened being Yakusan Igen, as far as I remember in the answer to a boy who was curious what Yakusan was doing... His answer was - 'think non-thinking, actually it was spoken with 兀兀, GOTSU GOTSU it is difficult to put it in English. Well could mean unmovingly or with great boldness etc.
Therefore those words came from deep satori of Yakusan. Before we are able to understand thinking of non-thinking we have to arrive at Yakusan state. It is very save i think to Ask a teacher what to do in zazen.
User avatar
SardonicHerzog
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:07 pm

Re: Wall-staring in Shikantaza?

Post by SardonicHerzog »

I wouldn't say I stare into the wall, but just a bit lower, maybe where the wall meets the floor. I have a small box where I have an incence holder and like a mini-altar and I do not focus on that but the space just in front of it.
Post Reply

Return to “Soto”