Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Nicholas2727
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Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Soto zen is one of the traditions I know the least about. While I don't practice in this tradition I am curious to learn more about it. From the little bit of research I have done on Soto zen, it seems there are some mixed views on it. Some seems like watered down Buddhism, while other people seem very educated and incorporate all of Zen practice. While I know the difference between Rinzai and Soto is supposedly just the method, when reading posts on this website there seems to be some difference in view and overall practice. Does anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:34 pm Soto zen is one of the traditions I know the least about. While I don't practice in this tradition I am curious to learn more about it. From the little bit of research I have done on Soto zen, it seems there are some mixed views on it. Some seems like watered down Buddhism, while other people seem very educated and incorporate all of Zen practice. While I know the difference between Rinzai and Soto is supposedly just the method, when reading posts on this website there seems to be some difference in view and overall practice. Does anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?

Where to begin? There is a lot of material available to study.

Just go to Amazon and search on Soto.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by narhwal90 »

Many Soto groups meet by zoom, many publish podcasts and myriad videos are posted on youtube. Perhaps start there, seek the lecturers to whom you respond, and steer away from those you do not. For my part, ultimately the practice involves face-to-face conversation, or at zoom-to-zoom if thats not possible.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:34 pmDoes anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?
You can start with the official site. It has a fair amount of introductory materials.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Genjo Conan
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Genjo Conan »

It's an awfully broad question.

You could do worse than starting with Fukanzazengi (Universal Recommendation for Zazen), Bendowa (On the Practice of the Way) and Tenzo Kyokun (Instructions to the Temple Cook), all by Eihei Dogen, and Zazen Yojinki (Notes on Awareness in Zazen) by Keizan Jokin.

All are short and relatively straightforward. And all should be readily available online.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Sherap Nyima »

Zen Mind Beginners Mind _Suzuki Roshi
best conveys the spirit of Soto
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Matylda »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:34 pm Soto zen is one of the traditions I know the least about. While I don't practice in this tradition I am curious to learn more about it. From the little bit of research I have done on Soto zen, it seems there are some mixed views on it. Some seems like watered down Buddhism, while other people seem very educated and incorporate all of Zen practice. While I know the difference between Rinzai and Soto is supposedly just the method, when reading posts on this website there seems to be some difference in view and overall practice. Does anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?
Three PIllars of Zen, by Philip Kapleau
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by HePo »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:16 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:34 pm Soto zen is one of the traditions I know the least about. While I don't practice in this tradition I am curious to learn more about it. From the little bit of research I have done on Soto zen, it seems there are some mixed views on it. Some seems like watered down Buddhism, while other people seem very educated and incorporate all of Zen practice. While I know the difference between Rinzai and Soto is supposedly just the method, when reading posts on this website there seems to be some difference in view and overall practice. Does anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?
Three PIllars of Zen, by Philip Kapleau
IMO the Three Pillars book could perhaps be considered an introduction into Sanbo Kyodan, the Harada-Yasutani School of Zen Buddhism, not Soto Zen.

You have been rather outspoken on the subject of dokusan.
What do you think about Kapleau including 85 interviews (dokusan) of Westerners with Yasutani roshi?

I have an old copy of the book (1967), of the 351 pages, 50 pages are on dokusan (85 interviews), 100 pages are on enlightenment, i did not particularly like it back then.

If you want an introduction into Soto Zen by a Westerner who practiced in Japan (Sojiji) then perhaps Jiuyu Kennett's book "Selling water by the river"
would be a better option.

Nowadays there are many books that do a better job of explaining Soto Zen then these 2 titles, just look around.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Matt J »

Some popular books, although it has been a while:

Opening the Hand of Thought by Uchiyama Roshi
Questions to a Zen Master by Deshimaru Roshi
Cultivating the Empty Field by Taigen Dan Leighton
Zen is Not What You Think by Steve Hagen

My personal opinion is that Soto is for people with high capacity.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Genjo Conan »

I respectfully disagree that Rev. Port's post is a good source to learn about Soto Zen. Rather than retype it, I'm going to cut and paste something that I wrote elsewhere (lightly edited for clarity):
While Rev. Port seems like an excellent teacher from everything I can see, and while I generally think that an iconoclastic impulse can be helpful in ensuring that movements remain vital, Rev. Port's descriptions of modern Soto Zen in America don't match with my experience.

In particular, he asserts that American Soto practitioners are incurious. For example:
In our time, what Soto Zen is essentially about is not something that many students inquire into let alone debate, but instead accept it as a belief system based on original enlightenment and a fetishization of the zazen pose.
Nonsense. I have practiced at a number of Soto Zen temples, with a lot of different students, and this debate happens all the time. (I'm not going to get into his jibe about fetishization.) It comes up in casual conversation, it comes up in dharma talks, it comes up in shosan. So I suppose one of two things is true: either I have gotten extremely lucky in who I hang out with--have attracted a better class of Soto Zen practitioner--or Rev. Port is wrong. But ultimately, it's all just our anecdotes either way.

To the extent, though, that Rev. Port asserts that American Soto practitioners are unaware of the Meiji-era reformation of Soto Zen, he's provably wrong. For example, here's a six-year-old blog post from Jiryu Rutschman-Byler about the circumstances leading to the creation of the Shushogi:
In an amazing demonstration of the openness and indeterminacy of Soto orthodoxy at the time, some super-interesting “Soto practices for laypeople” were proposed: How about we say our practice is chanting the name of Shakyamuni? How about we say that our main deal is chanting the name of the Three Treasures? Why not have Kannon be the main figure on our altars? Or how about Amida Buddha? – he’s hella popular!
and
Anyway, this text intended as a lay-oriented “doctrine patch” is the text that the sect ended up adopting to describe the entire Soto perspective.
Jiryu isn't some heterodox voice on the outskirts of American Soto Zen, he's the head of practice at SFZC's Green Gulch temple. He couldn't be more mainstream "American Zen" if he tried.

So. Again, I feel like I need to reiterate that I respect Rev. Port. I just think he's wrong about this.
This isn't to say that all American Soto Zen students are deeply familiar with the Meiji reformation, or would care much if they were familiar with it. Some Soto Zen students--and indeed, teachers--are incurious. But I have a hard time believing that's a uniquely sectarian problem; that all the incurious people flocked to Soto Zen, where we can all just sit there, numbing out.

There are plenty of problems with American Soto Zen. I've been practicing for a decade, which isn't very long, but I think long enough to see some of the cracks in the paint. I get very frustrated with a lot of what I see in American Soto praxis. But I get frustrated because I love it.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Matylda »

HePo wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:30 pm
IMO the Three Pillars book could perhaps be considered an introduction into Sanbo Kyodan, the Harada-Yasutani School of Zen Buddhism, not Soto Zen.

You have been rather outspoken on the subject of dokusan.
What do you think about Kapleau including 85 interviews (dokusan) of Westerners with Yasutani roshi?

I have an old copy of the book (1967), of the 351 pages, 50 pages are on dokusan (85 interviews), 100 pages are on enlightenment, i did not particularly like it back then.

If you want an introduction into Soto Zen by a Westerner who practiced in Japan (Sojiji) then perhaps Jiuyu Kennett's book "Selling water by the river"
would be a better option.

Nowadays there are many books that do a better job of explaining Soto Zen then these 2 titles, just look around.
No the three pillars, in fact cannot be attributed to Sanbokyodan. It is kind of misunderstanding. Among 14 heirs of Daiun Roshi [known as Harada] there was also Yasutani Roshi. Sanbokyodan refers specifically to Harada-Yasutani, but what you may find in the Three Pillars, is strictly teaching of Daiun Roshi. He was one of most respected soto zen masters in Japan. Around 1940s he almost cecame abbot of Eiheiji, best known monastery of soto zen established by Dogen Zenji.
Daiun Roshis teachings are very easy to understand and reflect one of the mainstreams of soto zen, sepcially revived by him. In thsi mainstream were many masters like Tenkei Denson, Fugai Honko, and others, and there are some described in authobiography of Daiun Roshi.

Connectiong Daiun Roshi entirely to Sanbokyodan is only partly true, but overemphasizing his name gives false picture. Daiun Roshi was a soto master, not Sanbokyodan. What is in the book are exactly same teachings one may found in Daiuns writings, they are just repeated. About the rest I will write later.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

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Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:31 pm

This isn't to say that all American Soto Zen students are deeply familiar with the Meiji reformation, or would care much if they were familiar with it. Some Soto Zen students--and indeed, teachers--are incurious. But I have a hard time believing that's a uniquely sectarian problem; that all the incurious people flocked to Soto Zen, where we can all just sit there, numbing out.

There are plenty of problems with American Soto Zen. I've been practicing for a decade, which isn't very long, but I think long enough to see some of the cracks in the paint. I get very frustrated with a lot of what I see in American Soto praxis. But I get frustrated because I love it.
This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:07 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:31 pm

This isn't to say that all American Soto Zen students are deeply familiar with the Meiji reformation, or would care much if they were familiar with it. Some Soto Zen students--and indeed, teachers--are incurious. But I have a hard time believing that's a uniquely sectarian problem; that all the incurious people flocked to Soto Zen, where we can all just sit there, numbing out.

There are plenty of problems with American Soto Zen. I've been practicing for a decade, which isn't very long, but I think long enough to see some of the cracks in the paint. I get very frustrated with a lot of what I see in American Soto praxis. But I get frustrated because I love it.
This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
I feel this is another large issue with Zen in the West. I'm sure it has been discussed on this forum, although I have not taken the time to look into it yet, but it is something that has made me weary of Soto Zen. Like you said there are many many great masters and practitioners of Soto Zen in the West, although there is an issue of it being very close to Secular Buddhism. I have heard some Soto teachers say don't worry about the 4 noble truths, study, sutras, etc and just sit Zazen. Maybe for someone that's what they need, but its very lacking to me and misses out on a lot Buddhism has to offer. This was the point of my original post. To gather some reading material to get a true taste of Soto Zen that has not been watered down. Maybe some on here would have suggestions of teachers to listen to on YouTube as well to get a better taste of authentic Soto Zen.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:07 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:31 pm

This isn't to say that all American Soto Zen students are deeply familiar with the Meiji reformation, or would care much if they were familiar with it. Some Soto Zen students--and indeed, teachers--are incurious. But I have a hard time believing that's a uniquely sectarian problem; that all the incurious people flocked to Soto Zen, where we can all just sit there, numbing out.

There are plenty of problems with American Soto Zen. I've been practicing for a decade, which isn't very long, but I think long enough to see some of the cracks in the paint. I get very frustrated with a lot of what I see in American Soto praxis. But I get frustrated because I love it.
This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
I feel this is another large issue with Zen in the West. I'm sure it has been discussed on this forum, although I have not taken the time to look into it yet, but it is something that has made me weary of Soto Zen. Like you said there are many many great masters and practitioners of Soto Zen in the West, although there is an issue of it being very close to Secular Buddhism. I have heard some Soto teachers say don't worry about the 4 noble truths, study, sutras, etc and just sit Zazen. Maybe for someone that's what they need, but its very lacking to me and misses out on a lot Buddhism has to offer. This was the point of my original post. To gather some reading material to get a true taste of Soto Zen that has not been watered down. Maybe some on here would have suggestions of teachers to listen to on YouTube as well to get a better taste of authentic Soto Zen.
It's one thing to talk like that in a religious culture where the audience already have some familiarity with texts, commentaries, basic knowledge of Buddhism, quite another to talk like that in our culture, where students often have very little Buddhist education in the first place, and have a pre-existing set of ideas coming mainly from materialism and Christianity. Tell me if you uncover some particularly good resources, I'm interested too.

I couldn't make sense of my Zen experiences until being exposed to another tradition, and to considering the words of a few people on here. I think part of the issue is that Soto is by definition so much about direct experience. I feel like real understanding of it does indeed likely come from a somewhat intimate relationship with a teacher who actually verifies your experience.

That said, I'm making my way slowly through volume 1 of the Shobogenzo right now, and I have to say, all it does is reinforce to me that the version of Zen I was taught was it's own unique cultural product. It's slow reading but you could always do that. It has some really profound gems so far.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Matt J »

Few Theravedans knew anything about Mahayana, and few Vajrayana folks I've met know anything about actual Theravada or Zen (as opposed to the comments in Tibetan books). There is a set of people who cross-over, but in my (anecdotal) experience, they tend to be exceptions or in the minority among serious practitioners. Not sure if this is an American thing, or just a human thing.

But having said that, many of the same criticisms and frustrations I encountered in Soto are readily available in Vajrayana. I think the bottom line, no matter the tradition, it can be difficult to find a good teacher with clear instructions that bear fruit for us.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:07 pm This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Genjo Conan »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:07 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:31 pm

This isn't to say that all American Soto Zen students are deeply familiar with the Meiji reformation, or would care much if they were familiar with it. Some Soto Zen students--and indeed, teachers--are incurious. But I have a hard time believing that's a uniquely sectarian problem; that all the incurious people flocked to Soto Zen, where we can all just sit there, numbing out.

There are plenty of problems with American Soto Zen. I've been practicing for a decade, which isn't very long, but I think long enough to see some of the cracks in the paint. I get very frustrated with a lot of what I see in American Soto praxis. But I get frustrated because I love it.
This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
Oh, I think this is absolutely true. One of my complaints with American Soto Zen is that there are strains within it that are essentially "MBSR plus robes and Dogen". And even more broadly than that, I have never come across a Soto Zen temple* that I feel has a good "new practitioners curriculum." In a lot of places, new students get fifteen minutes of sitting instruction and a reading list, and off they go, but there's no sort of systematic instruction. This is something that I think has to change if we're going to sustain an authentic American Soto practice that avoids being a bad imitation of Japanese practice while respecting our lineage.

It also definitely doesn't help that the most prominent Online Zen Dudes (I'm not counting YouTube crackpots, but teachers with transmission in genuine lineages) teach a very modernist, dry-to-the-point-of-aridity style of Zen, which doesn't match up either with the practice as I've been given it, or the historical teachings as I understand them.

Where I disagree with Rev. Port is that I think he paints with too broad a brush. I think that some of his critiques can be incisive and worth considering, but they tend to be surrounded by overgeneralizations, which I think often crowds out the good points that he makes. That frustrates me too: given his history of Soto practice and inside/outside position in American Soto Zen, I want him to be a better interlocutor.

* my understanding is that the ZMM folks--Daido Loori's lineage--do a better job of this, but I've never practiced at any of their temples so can't speak to that.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:48 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:07 pm

This is all anecdotal, it really depends on who you know. This kind of thing is part of what made me leave Zen - the incurious or even derisive attitude I would often see towards study of Sutra or commentary, non-Zazen practices, etc. Some of the Western Soto practitioners I have known are rivaled only by Secular Buddhism in their general disdain for elements of Buddhism outside of Zazen.

I know it's not all practitioners by any means, I'd hazard a guess that it's not even most, but it is a prominent enough current in Western (or at least American) Zen to be a substantial part of some people's experience, in my opinion. It's a...current in American Zen, at least. America has it's own flavor of iconoclasm that it inherits from puritanism, etc., I think that's still under the surface of some people's thought process. Some of the people I've known would actually wear it liked a pretty prominent badge of identity "I'm a Buddhist, but I don't believe in any of that nonsense, just Zazen" sort of thing.

Sometimes things like this result from students misinterpreting their teachers, and they take on a life of their own, so I think it's perhaps less about doctrine than it is about culture.
I feel this is another large issue with Zen in the West. I'm sure it has been discussed on this forum, although I have not taken the time to look into it yet, but it is something that has made me weary of Soto Zen. Like you said there are many many great masters and practitioners of Soto Zen in the West, although there is an issue of it being very close to Secular Buddhism. I have heard some Soto teachers say don't worry about the 4 noble truths, study, sutras, etc and just sit Zazen. Maybe for someone that's what they need, but its very lacking to me and misses out on a lot Buddhism has to offer. This was the point of my original post. To gather some reading material to get a true taste of Soto Zen that has not been watered down. Maybe some on here would have suggestions of teachers to listen to on YouTube as well to get a better taste of authentic Soto Zen.
It's one thing to talk like that in a religious culture where the audience already have some familiarity with texts, commentaries, basic knowledge of Buddhism, quite another to talk like that in our culture, where students often have very little Buddhist education in the first place, and have a pre-existing set of ideas coming mainly from materialism and Christianity. Tell me if you uncover some particularly good resources, I'm interested too.

I couldn't make sense of my Zen experiences until being exposed to another tradition, and to considering the words of a few people on here. I think part of the issue is that Soto is by definition so much about direct experience. I feel like real understanding of it does indeed likely come from a somewhat intimate relationship with a teacher who actually verifies your experience.

That said, I'm making my way slowly through volume 1 of the Shobogenzo right now, and I have to say, all it does is reinforce to me that the version of Zen I was taught was it's own unique cultural product. It's slow reading but you could always do that. It has some really profound gems so far.
Yes, I do not have much Zen knowledge although I am apart of the "Rinzai Zen Discussion" group on facebook (I believe Meido started it?) and in just a few months I have learned more about Zen from them then I have in all my past experiences. While most of it is focused on Rinzai Zen, some Soto discussion comes up and it is useful to read. I do hope to find a few Soto books tho that really explain the tradition in a non-watered down way.

If you are interested, one teacher I have found that seems pretty knowledgeable is Sokuzan. His youtube link is here

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFpp45 ... 5vZia0WxLA

He has stated that he started with Zen, then followed Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and then after meeting Kobun Chino Roshi came back to zen. He reminds me a little bit of Tibetan teachers in the way he talks, but also adds some Zen flavor to it. Just thought I would share incase you're interested.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

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Hongzhi Zhengjue was the seminal figure of Caodong, the progenitor of Soto Zen school. And Guo Gu is a contemporary teacher and scholar well aware of the Japanese Soto too. A good place to start, at least.
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Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto

Post by Matylda »

HePo wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:30 pm
You have been rather outspoken on the subject of dokusan.
What do you think about Kapleau including 85 interviews (dokusan) of Westerners with Yasutani roshi?
If we look from todays perspective it may seem to be unnecessary. But if we look from the perspective of mid 60's last century again it might be different. Philip Kapleau was exposed in his dissemintation to the new ground, and young generation crazy ideas about zen. I have seen photos of some drug users of alternatice, contestatory movements, who looked like some crazy indian yogin, and the text under the picture declared that he was a zen and tantra master using marihuana and LSD in order to attain nirvana, or something like this. In Japan such individuals poped up in the 70s or even 80s still. Of course their zen career in Japan was as short as lightening. This is already gone long ago.

I think Kapleau with the agreement of Hakuun Roshi put this dokusan meetings in his book, just to give more clear picture what zen practice is about. Anyway there are no details like koan answers etc. and when I read it it was clear that those 'dokusans' were pretty different from this how it is practiced in Japan. First the length. Dokusan is very short, eneter, present KENGE or understanding of what one is practicing actually, ringing bell and bye bye, then next one. So those long exchanges are rather more like counceling [if I understand properly the term].

Only students who had some experience of samdhi may stay a little longer, but not always. In the case of koan answer there will be longer dokusan, if one passed, since then there are a few or several checking points including the use of ZENRIN KUSHU or SEGOSHU. The id passed the same koan has to be done again and again, it may take 3 or even 4 barriers. There is no such things in the book since there are no answers right or wrong, no jakugo etc.

But generally one cannot find that kind of literature at all iin Japan, it is strictly forbidden. If I understood properly what Kapleau wrote about those dokusans, he explained the reason, and also why he edited it.

Anyway thase interviews were more like Japanese TAIWA, or something like this. It may or may not help readers who would like to practice seriously and honestly. But it is very good point you picked up.
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