Three Types of Zazen

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clyde
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Three Types of Zazen

Post by clyde »

Soto Zen priest Kokyo Henkle describes 3 types of meditation.

The first is mindfulness of an object, any object. The second is mindfulness of the field of experience or “choiceless awareness”.
There is a third type of meditation, which I propose is the hallmark of traditional Zen. The Zen ancestors of China and Japan usually taught a zazen we could call awareness of awareness, or just being awareness itself. Awareness that is usually directed toward an object of experience, either a specific single object or the whole field of objects, is instead directed back upon itself, where it is always already shining. Since awareness itself is the only thing that is not an object of awareness, this is the end of subject-object duality, the cessation of the division of mind and experience. This is mindfulness of no object, nondual awareness, and when immersed in it, this is therefore the cessation of suffering, the end of discontent and grasping and fear, and the source of true love and compassion.

https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com/uploads/ ... _zazen.pdf
Kokyo Henkle: https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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“Since awareness itself is the only thing that is not an object of awareness, this is the end of subject-object duality, the cessation of the division of mind and experience.”

This is tricky more than we think.
What knows awareness is already divisive? We can’t reason away ignorance!
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:34 am “Since awareness itself is the only thing that is not an object of awareness, this is the end of subject-object duality, the cessation of the division of mind and experience.”

This is tricky more than we think.
What knows awareness is already divisive? We can’t reason away ignorance!
The practice beyond mindfulness is to look nakedly and directly at ‘what knows’, at the subject, ‘the knower’ of awareness. It has nothing to do with reasoning.

That is beyond just resting in ‘choiceless awareness’ in my opinion though, which is shamatha without an object, by another name.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:11 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:34 am “Since awareness itself is the only thing that is not an object of awareness, this is the end of subject-object duality, the cessation of the division of mind and experience.”

This is tricky more than we think.
What knows awareness is already divisive? We can’t reason away ignorance!
The practice beyond mindfulness is to look nakedly and directly at ‘what knows’, at the subject, ‘the knower’ of awareness. It has nothing to do with reasoning.

That is beyond just resting in ‘choiceless awareness’ in my opinion though, which is shamatha without an object, by another name.
I think so.
Bodhidharma pointed out blinking, walking, etc is automatic action of non-arising Wisdom for us to recognize. ‘What knows’ is probably consciousness (distinctive) and is appearance that arises. Zen is to complete transcend to that default non-arising Wisdom.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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I am just speaking from where I am (like most people on here) and what I was taught, not from actually transcended experience.
It’s eye blinking.
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Matt J
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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clyde wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:56 am Kokyo Henkle: https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com
Kokyo has also been practicing with the Tibetan Dzogchen (“Great Perfection”) Teacher Tsoknyi Rinpoche since 2003, in California, Colorado, and Kathmandu.
Interesting... :stirthepot: :lol:
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:11 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:34 am “Since awareness itself is the only thing that is not an object of awareness, this is the end of subject-object duality, the cessation of the division of mind and experience.”

This is tricky more than we think.
What knows awareness is already divisive? We can’t reason away ignorance!
The practice beyond mindfulness is to look nakedly and directly at ‘what knows’, at the subject, ‘the knower’ of awareness. It has nothing to do with reasoning.

That is beyond just resting in ‘choiceless awareness’ in my opinion though, which is shamatha without an object, by another name.
I think so.
Bodhidharma pointed out blinking, walking, etc is automatic action of non-arising Wisdom for us to recognize. ‘What knows’ is probably consciousness (distinctive) and is appearance that arises. Zen is to complete transcend to that default non-arising Wisdom.
You are talking theory, I’m talking about the practice mentioned in the quoted bit. It's not looking at appearances, that's basically Vipaysana.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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LastLegend
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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I have no idea what samatha or vispayana is and I am not talking theory.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

Post by SilenceMonkey »

The practice of looking without looking... seeing without seeing... in other words, looking at what can't be looked at and seeing what can't be seen. As described in the Diamond Sutra, 应无所住而生其心。"This mind arises as one has nowhere to abide." "One should have no abiding and this mind will arise."

This is taught very clearly and precisely in Master Sheng Yen's teachings on silent illumination. In english, there are two books I'm aware of which teach the practice very well. "Illuminating Silence" and "The Method of No Method".
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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clyde wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:56 am This is mindfulness of no object, nondual awareness, and when immersed in it, this is therefore the cessation of suffering, the end of discontent and grasping and fear, and the source of true love and compassion.
~ Kokyo Henkle
Funny, doesn’t love and compassion require subject/object?
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Went ahead and removed our disruptive debate, please let's try to keep somewhat on the subject of the OP.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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boda wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:57 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:56 am This is mindfulness of no object, nondual awareness, and when immersed in it, this is therefore the cessation of suffering, the end of discontent and grasping and fear, and the source of true love and compassion.
~ Kokyo Henkle
Funny, doesn’t love and compassion require subject/object?
With Great Compassion in the Mahayana, ultimately there is no subject and object. In practice in the relative world, yes, sometimes.
DJKR wrote:Question: Is compassion an emotion?

People like us have dualistic compassion, whereas the Buddha’s compassion does not involve subject and object. From a buddha’s point of view, compassion could never involve subject and object. This is what is called mahakaruna—great compassion.
from: https://www.lionsroar.com/buddhism-nuts ... ls-dharma/
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:15 pm The practice of looking without looking... seeing without seeing... in other words, looking at what can't be looked at and seeing what can't be seen. As described in the Diamond Sutra, 应无所住而生其心。"This mind arises as one has nowhere to abide." "One should have no abiding and this mind will arise."

This is taught very clearly and precisely in Master Sheng Yen's teachings on silent illumination. In english, there are two books I'm aware of which teach the practice very well. "Illuminating Silence" and "The Method of No Method".
:good: I will check these out.

It's amazing how difficult it truly is to let go of striving in meditation. There are two methods I'm aware of, one is what's mentioned in the OP, to look at the looker, turn awareness in on itself etc. At least initially, this requires effort. The other is to truly drop everything and let go of all effort, modification, etc. The second is (I think) equivalent to Shikantaza, and can barely be called a pratuce.

I think the second one is ironically more difficult, but it also may be that the two methods are simply meant for different types of students.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:52 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:15 pm The practice of looking without looking... seeing without seeing... in other words, looking at what can't be looked at and seeing what can't be seen. As described in the Diamond Sutra, 应无所住而生其心。"This mind arises as one has nowhere to abide." "One should have no abiding and this mind will arise."

This is taught very clearly and precisely in Master Sheng Yen's teachings on silent illumination. In english, there are two books I'm aware of which teach the practice very well. "Illuminating Silence" and "The Method of No Method".
:good: I will check these out.
I think his most thorough teaching of Silent Illumination might be his book in Chinese 聖嚴法師教默照禪 "Master Sheng Yen teaches Silent Illumination", which unfortunately hasn't been translated into english... It takes you through the whole process systematically. But those two books I mentioned are pretty great. Each of them contain his talks in two seven-day Silent Illumination retreats. The translator is John Crook, who I've heard was a very good practitioner and I find him to be Master Sheng Yen's best translator.

But actually all of Master Sheng Yen's teachings are somehow touching on Silent Illumination. Because, as Master Sheng Yen taught, Silent Illumination is the state of Chan. Even when you're doing other rituals or walking your dog, to do it with Silent Illumination is the essence of Chan.

I think Master Sheng Yen was a very special Chan teacher because he was actually very systematic in how he taught. He had profound realization, but he also studied, which was maybe rare for masters of Chan. He studied many other methods in chinese traditions, even japanese zen methods. And he put his knowledge into use by creating a systematic (gradual) approach to the elusive essence of chan. His mind was very sharp. His teaching precise.
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:52 pm
boda wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:57 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:56 am This is mindfulness of no object, nondual awareness, and when immersed in it, this is therefore the cessation of suffering, the end of discontent and grasping and fear, and the source of true love and compassion.
~ Kokyo Henkle
Funny, doesn’t love and compassion require subject/object?
With Great Compassion in the Mahayana, ultimately there is no subject and object. In practice in the relative world, yes, sometimes.
DJKR wrote:Question: Is compassion an emotion?

People like us have dualistic compassion, whereas the Buddha’s compassion does not involve subject and object. From a buddha’s point of view, compassion could never involve subject and object. This is what is called mahakaruna—great compassion.
from: https://www.lionsroar.com/buddhism-nuts ... ls-dharma/
At Dharma Drum Mountain, they don't teach loving kindness and compassion meditations like they do in Tibetan and Theravada buddhism. They say that in Chan, one doesn't waste time with dualistic methods. (When I asked about this, they referenced the Diamond Sutra.) Once you break through the ego and see your true nature, the great compassion of your buddha nature will shine forth naturally and unobstructed. Everything you do will be an expression of Wisdom and Compassion, the skillful means of Chan. So they focus intensely one one method only until one sees their true nature.
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:52 pm
boda wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:57 pm

Funny, doesn’t love and compassion require subject/object?
With Great Compassion in the Mahayana, ultimately there is no subject and object. In practice in the relative world, yes, sometimes.
DJKR wrote:Question: Is compassion an emotion?

People like us have dualistic compassion, whereas the Buddha’s compassion does not involve subject and object. From a buddha’s point of view, compassion could never involve subject and object. This is what is called mahakaruna—great compassion.
from: https://www.lionsroar.com/buddhism-nuts ... ls-dharma/
At Dharma Drum Mountain, they don't teach loving kindness and compassion meditations like they do in Tibetan and Theravada buddhism. They say that in Chan, one doesn't waste time with dualistic methods. (When I asked about this, they referenced the Diamond Sutra.) Once you break through the ego and see your true nature, the great compassion of your buddha nature will shine forth naturally and unobstructed. Everything you do will be an expression of Wisdom and Compassion, the skillful means of Chan. So they focus intensely one one method only until one sees their true nature.
This is the same as Mahamudra and Dzogchen level of teaching in Tibetan Buddhism (which DJKR teaches). What you are thinking of in Tibetan Buddhism is teachings that come at the level of the casual vehicles, where students learn things like practice of the Four Immeasurables, etc. People start out with those things, and different teachers and individuals utilize them to different degrees, but the higher vehicles approach it as you describe.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Three Types of Zazen

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:54 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:52 pm

With Great Compassion in the Mahayana, ultimately there is no subject and object. In practice in the relative world, yes, sometimes.



from: https://www.lionsroar.com/buddhism-nuts ... ls-dharma/
At Dharma Drum Mountain, they don't teach loving kindness and compassion meditations like they do in Tibetan and Theravada buddhism. They say that in Chan, one doesn't waste time with dualistic methods. (When I asked about this, they referenced the Diamond Sutra.) Once you break through the ego and see your true nature, the great compassion of your buddha nature will shine forth naturally and unobstructed. Everything you do will be an expression of Wisdom and Compassion, the skillful means of Chan. So they focus intensely one one method only until one sees their true nature.
This is the same as Mahamudra and Dzogchen level of teaching in Tibetan Buddhism (which DJKR teaches). What you are thinking of in Tibetan Buddhism is teachings that come at the level of the casual vehicles, where students learn things like practice of the Four Immeasurables, etc. People start out with those things, and different teachers and individuals utilize them to different degrees, but the higher vehicles approach it as you describe.
Very cool :thumbsup:
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