Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Locked
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

I read an interesting post from Matylda about how Soto recently, I mean recent 100 years or so ditched the satori thing. According to Matylda, there is no authentic Zen without satori - sorry if I misunderstood what she wanted to say. On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori. What was his intention when discouraging people from worrying about satori or boasting their personal satori? Another great Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to put much emphasis on satori, either. I am interested in Matylda's opinion but anyone else here, too. BTW are Zen teachers not allowed on this forum? Some time ago I read something about Zen teachers not allowed to post here, but Meido does post here and he is, as far as I know, a certified zen teacher.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:14 pm I read an interesting post from Matylda about how Soto recently, I mean recent 100 years or so ditched the satori thing. According to Matylda, there is no authentic Zen without satori - sorry if I misunderstood what she wanted to say. On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori. What was his intention when discouraging people from worrying about satori or boasting their personal satori? Another great Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to put much emphasis on satori, either. I am interested in Matylda's opinion but anyone else here, too. BTW are Zen teachers not allowed on this forum? Some time ago I read something about Zen teachers not allowed to post here, but Meido does post here and he is, as far as I know, a certified zen teacher.
There is no ban on Zen teachers posting here, nor has there ever been, at least in 8 or 9 years I've used the forum. If you 'read something' on that front, it was probably nonsense, and likely from someone displeased with other aspects of the site who was making a fraudulent claim in order to make their point seem more legitimate.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:14 pm I read an interesting post from Matylda about how Soto recently, I mean recent 100 years or so ditched the satori thing. According to Matylda, there is no authentic Zen without satori - sorry if I misunderstood what she wanted to say. On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori. What was his intention when discouraging people from worrying about satori or boasting their personal satori? Another great Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to put much emphasis on satori, either. I am interested in Matylda's opinion but anyone else here, too. BTW are Zen teachers not allowed on this forum? Some time ago I read something about Zen teachers not allowed to post here, but Meido does post here and he is, as far as I know, a certified zen teacher.
This is very interesting. From a Soto perspective it makes a certain amount of sense, since (although Soto is classified as a "sudden realization" school docologically) in Soto theory the there is union between the path and the result..."Just sitting" is both a goal and a path according to Master Dogen.

I am a Rinzai practitioner and as you doubtless know, Rinzai puts a lot more emphasis on what might be termed more dramatic, discrete experiences. The experience of kensho (見性), or "seeing one's own nature", is emphasized not as an end goal but as a relatively basic flash of insight into one's mind. One must then "stabilize kensho," and many practioners will haver dozens of kensho experiences before they get a handle on how to do so. The word Kensho is often used interchangeably with satori ( 悟り) or "realization," although personally I see them as having slightly different nuances. People often mistakenly think of these experiences as end goals, but they happen relatively early on the path.

Although I know both schools are technically "sudden realization" Zen, I don't find that term particularly helpful, because mastery of either path takes quite a long time! The point is that while Rinzai lurches from experience to experience in a kind of ladder of stages, Soto (at least to my limited knowledge) seems to be a smoother incline, of just settling deeper into the experience of sitting, and of course acquiring wisdom through study. I know Soto uses koans, if to a lesser degree than Rinzai, but I don't know how they integrate them with the other aspects of practice. I'd be interested to learn.

Ultimately I don't personally see the "de-emphasizing" or outright abandonment of satori as a problem for Soto, because its a relatively low-level experience anyway and not at all the same thing as "enlightenment," (which non-practitioners often mistakenly assume). I just get the sense that specific "events" like satori were never as central to the Soto process as they are to Rinzai.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:28 pm
ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:14 pm I read an interesting post from Matylda about how Soto recently, I mean recent 100 years or so ditched the satori thing. According to Matylda, there is no authentic Zen without satori - sorry if I misunderstood what she wanted to say. On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori. What was his intention when discouraging people from worrying about satori or boasting their personal satori? Another great Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to put much emphasis on satori, either. I am interested in Matylda's opinion but anyone else here, too. BTW are Zen teachers not allowed on this forum? Some time ago I read something about Zen teachers not allowed to post here, but Meido does post here and he is, as far as I know, a certified zen teacher.
There is no ban on Zen teachers posting here, nor has there ever been, at least in 8 or 9 years I've used the forum. If you 'read something' on that front, it was probably nonsense, and likely from someone displeased with other aspects of the site who was making a fraudulent claim in order to make their point seem more legitimate.
I see, it was probably something like that there is no "Teachers section" like there was at e-sangha where qualified teachers gave advice to beginners. Or I read it at a different zen forum.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:53 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:28 pm
ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:14 pm I read an interesting post from Matylda about how Soto recently, I mean recent 100 years or so ditched the satori thing. According to Matylda, there is no authentic Zen without satori - sorry if I misunderstood what she wanted to say. On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori. What was his intention when discouraging people from worrying about satori or boasting their personal satori? Another great Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to put much emphasis on satori, either. I am interested in Matylda's opinion but anyone else here, too. BTW are Zen teachers not allowed on this forum? Some time ago I read something about Zen teachers not allowed to post here, but Meido does post here and he is, as far as I know, a certified zen teacher.
There is no ban on Zen teachers posting here, nor has there ever been, at least in 8 or 9 years I've used the forum. If you 'read something' on that front, it was probably nonsense, and likely from someone displeased with other aspects of the site who was making a fraudulent claim in order to make their point seem more legitimate.
I see, it was probably something like that there is no "Teachers section" like there was at e-sangha where qualified teachers gave advice to beginners. Or I read it at a different zen forum.
It's possible I am forgetting or it was before my time. At any rate, it certainly isn't the case now, and hasn't been that I remember for the 8 or 9 years I've been here.

As to the main question though, realizing something and sustaining that realization are not the same thing necessarily, perhaps that is reason for the de-emphasis.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

I started the thread to initiate a discussion on whether Soto Zen is really so weak in the West as Matylda, who seems to be quite respected here at this forum, basically states from her Japanese point of view. Of course, I don' t want to start a flamewar, just interested.
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:02 pm I started the thread to initiate a discussion on whether Soto Zen is really so weak in the West as Matylda, who seems to be quite respected here at this forum, basically states from her Japanese point of view. Of course, I don' t want to start a flamewar, just interested.
Do you perceive it as weak?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:02 pm I started the thread to initiate a discussion on whether Soto Zen is really so weak in the West as Matylda, who seems to be quite respected here at this forum, basically states from her Japanese point of view. Of course, I don' t want to start a flamewar, just interested.
Do you perceive it as weak?
No, it is reaction to Matylda claiming that in the West Soto practice is weak or lame or whatever she calls it as there is no emphasis on satori.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:05 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:02 pm I started the thread to initiate a discussion on whether Soto Zen is really so weak in the West as Matylda, who seems to be quite respected here at this forum, basically states from her Japanese point of view. Of course, I don' t want to start a flamewar, just interested.
Do you perceive it as weak?
No, it is reaction to Matylda claiming that in the West Soto practice is weak or lame or whatever she calls it as there is no emphasis on satori.
I've read some of Matidya's critique, while I don't have the background to know the details, I do have my own experience that mirrors some of her statements, at least somewhat.

I think if you look at modern Soto in the West quite often that nature of awakening is not even understood, or it's avoided entirely with platitudes about how you are a Buddha when in Zazen, how the ordinary mind is enlightenment anyway, etc. Don't get me wrong, Those are profound teachings, but maybe they can also be an excuse for not actually teaching meditation in a meaningful way, let alone a genuine flash that a teacher could point out to a student. traditional stories are full of people who get a glimpse then go off in some irrelevant direction anyway. There are whole books on it, including in Zen with works like Great Doubt.There are direct parallels in the Tibetan traditions I think.

Like any generalization though, I am quite sure it is just that, and that there can be authentic and realized Western Soto teachers out there.

I would suggest that if you want to address a specific critique that maybe you quote it and respond to it. As of right now you are telling us something very vague that Matidya has said, with no reference. Won't make for a very precise discussion.

To me, with my basic knowledge of Zen I would hazard this guess:

Teacher de emphasize satori because ( much like recognizing the nature of mind in the Tibetan traditions) people almost immediately make it into an ego trip. It isn't. it is literally finding what was already there with the help of a teacher, but it is easy to believe we have had a flash when we have not, or to make up a whole narrative surrounding it that pulls us away from awakening itself. Just go look at the number of people claiming "enlightenment" to see what I mean.

So, my hunch is that you cannot even tell whether a teacher "supports Satori" without training with them, meaning actual Zazen and Shikantaza instruction, Dokusan, etc. Zen does not really make sense without it, in my personal opinion. Much like the non-gradual side of the Tibetan traditions, pointing out the nature from the teacher is the thing. Notably, some writings also say it is an experience that one needs to repeat much like in the Tibetan traditions one needs to clarify and stabilize one's original flash.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:05 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
ryunin wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:02 pm I started the thread to initiate a discussion on whether Soto Zen is really so weak in the West as Matylda, who seems to be quite respected here at this forum, basically states from her Japanese point of view. Of course, I don' t want to start a flamewar, just interested.
Do you perceive it as weak?
No, it is reaction to Matylda claiming that in the West Soto practice is weak or lame or whatever she calls it as there is no emphasis on satori.
I see.

To me the primary weakness of zen in both Japan and the west is a lack of attention to textual scholarship and classic writings, except at an academic level. Zen centers in the west emphasize zazen almost exclusively, with maybe some sutra chanting, but how many make a comprehensive study of the works of Dogen, Bankei, or Hakunin? To say nothing of the Mahayana Sutras in general. Bodhidharma prized the Lankavatara Sutra so highly that the early Zen school in China was called the "Lanka Sect" for a while. This text should be studied in detail.

Meanwhile in Asia. classic writings are studied more exhaustively during Zen training of ordained prelates, and koan study with related Chinese texts is a big part of Rinzai training. But after university and formal training, the focus is so often on ritual/liturgy, Danka-related concerns, and "funeral Buddhism." These things are not bad in and of themselves but sustained engagement with dialogues of the Masters, essays, and Mahayana sutras seems deficient. Zen may be "a special transmission beyond words and texts," but it has a rich and rewarding textual tradition that is too often deemphasized these days.

Perfection of wisdom demands study as well as meditation, IMHO.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Genjo Conan
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Genjo Conan »

Lot to try to respond to here. Matylda certainly has her point of view about western Zen. I'm an American Soto Zen practitioner, so I have my point of view, too. I dunno, maybe she's right, maybe not.

I think it's more correct to say that western Soto Zen de-emphasizes satori/kensho than that it denies them. When you write "On the other hand Kodo Sawaki warned people not to try to attain satori", I think the key phrase is "not to try." I think that, if you set up practice as chasing after some kind of big experience, then you're not practicing, you're chasing after some kind of big experience. To set yourself up as someone who either has or hasn't had that big experience is egotistical.

That isn't to say that realization, both big and little, doesn't happen, or doesn't matter--Keizan's Denkoroku remains one of Soto Zen's foundational texts, after all--but I've been taught not to focus on it, and it happens if it's ready to happen.

I also realize that this can all sound like pious nonsense.
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Here is a passage about the situation in Japan. From an academic study of Myoshinji Rinzai byJorn Borup, pp. 111-112:
...But, interestingly, the word satori is
very seldom used as an attribute of living masters. Nishimura
claims that “ninety-nine percent of all Zen priests do not have a real
satori experience” (1974, 12), and one priest once told me that “satori
is a dirty word” not to be talked about. Satori as a goal for personal
achievement might, as the rōshi at the Empukuji monastery illustrated
to me, serve in the same way as the thought of winning a gold medal
in the Olympic Games: it is impossible for the absolute majority, but a
positive ideal to strive for. His idea that Śākyamuni Buddha was a perfect
human being achieving the highest goal not being accessible for most
other people, is one I have often heard in other Buddhist countries. As
such, satori is a “linguistic taboo” (Faure 1991, 49), functioning both
to sanction against inflated ego awareness and to justify what Spiro
in another context calls the guilt of the “nonnibbanic motivation for
their Buddhist practice” (1982, 78), thus bridging the aforementioned
dilemma of the priest having to balance between being too “religious”
and too “secular.” Just as enlightenment stories of legendary masters
(and Western converts) follow standardized discursive structures, the
concept seems primarily to function as a doctrinal ideal, a ritually
enacted model of and for “practical mastery of Buddhahood” (Sharf
2005, 266), and an institutional emblem to legitimate transmission.
Satori is an honorific attribute ascribed to deceased masters and to the
few living masters who are institutionally sanctified on ritual occasions
at which their seals of transmission (and thus status as enlightened
masters) are revealed.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

I am afraid I have opened a can of worms. As far as I know master Dogen himself never encouraged anyone to attain one-time satori, rather realize the truth in every day situations. I would say a satori experience within Soto practice is a by-product of such practice which should be used appropriately - ditch one's satori experience for the sake of expressing the truth in everyday actions. I don't know any authentic master alive or dead who would speak about one's satori, at least not in a way that sounds like "Look how amazing I am, I am enlightened". And they hardly ever speak about satori of their colleagues or ancestors. Rather if they ever mention something like that, they speak about it like it is the most ordinary thing there is. I agree with Matylda that replacing the problem of attaining the truth with talking about fear and politics and gender problems is ridiculous. Teachers, both in the East and West must address the problem of attaining and expressing the truth. And I am sure there are such Soto teachers in the West and in the East. I think Japanese Soto has bad reputation for priests getting money for organizing funerals, whereas in the US Soto teachers seem to be preoccupied with politics and ethics. In both cases, where is the problem of the truth, the practicing dharma? But this has probably been always the case throughout the history of Buddhism. Authentic, genuine teachers are rare. Anyway, Shohaku Okumura, for instance, without emphasing satori experience, is a great example of a genuine Soto teacher having lived in the US for a long time. Shunryu Suzuki, without emphasing satori experience, was a wonderful teacher in the US. I am sure there are some successors of such and similar teachers who continue that authentic Buddhist teaching.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:11 am I am afraid I have opened a can of worms. As far as I know master Dogen himself never encouraged anyone to attain one-time satori, rather realize the truth in every day situations. I would say a satori experience within Soto practice is a by-product of such practice which should be used appropriately - ditch one's satori experience for the sake of expressing the truth in everyday actions. I don't know any authentic master alive or dead who would speak about one's satori, at least not in a way that sounds like "Look how amazing I am, I am enlightened". And they hardly ever speak about satori of their colleagues or ancestors. Rather if they ever mention something like that, they speak about it like it is the most ordinary thing there is. I agree with Matylda that replacing the problem of attaining the truth with talking about fear and politics and gender problems is ridiculous. Teachers, both in the East and West must address the problem of attaining and expressing the truth. And I am sure there are such Soto teachers in the West and in the East. I think Japanese Soto has bad reputation for priests getting money for organizing funerals, whereas in the US Soto teachers seem to be preoccupied with politics and ethics. In both cases, where is the problem of the truth, the practicing dharma? But this has probably been always the case throughout the history of Buddhism. Authentic, genuine teachers are rare. Anyway, Shohaku Okumura, for instance, without emphasing satori experience, is a great example of a genuine Soto teacher having lived in the US for a long time. Shunryu Suzuki, without emphasing satori experience, was a wonderful teacher in the US. I am sure there are some successors of such and similar teachers who continue that authentic Buddhist teaching.
What exactly is it in Soto Zen praxis to "emphasize Satori experience" or "support satori"?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:11 am I am afraid I have opened a can of worms. As far as I know master Dogen himself never encouraged anyone to attain one-time satori, rather realize the truth in every day situations. I would say a satori experience within Soto practice is a by-product of such practice which should be used appropriately - ditch one's satori experience for the sake of expressing the truth in everyday actions. I don't know any authentic master alive or dead who would speak about one's satori, at least not in a way that sounds like "Look how amazing I am, I am enlightened". And they hardly ever speak about satori of their colleagues or ancestors. Rather if they ever mention something like that, they speak about it like it is the most ordinary thing there is. I agree with Matylda that replacing the problem of attaining the truth with talking about fear and politics and gender problems is ridiculous. Teachers, both in the East and West must address the problem of attaining and expressing the truth. And I am sure there are such Soto teachers in the West and in the East. I think Japanese Soto has bad reputation for priests getting money for organizing funerals, whereas in the US Soto teachers seem to be preoccupied with politics and ethics. In both cases, where is the problem of the truth, the practicing dharma? But this has probably been always the case throughout the history of Buddhism. Authentic, genuine teachers are rare. Anyway, Shohaku Okumura, for instance, without emphasing satori experience, is a great example of a genuine Soto teacher having lived in the US for a long time. Shunryu Suzuki, without emphasing satori experience, was a wonderful teacher in the US. I am sure there are some successors of such and similar teachers who continue that authentic Buddhist teaching.
:good:

The issue of politics and "engaged Buddhism" replacing the Dharma is a serious one. What about good old "disengaged Buddhism" and letting go of clinging? The Dharma is its own reward. Buddhism contributes to society by upholding and spreading the Dharma; that should be enough.

Nevertheless in reality there has always been a social dimension to Buddhism, in all countries. Buddhism was first propagated in Japan under the Ritsuryo system because the court elites thought it would be of practical use in defending the nation. In Japan and Tibet both, monasteries controlled vast wealth and landholdings, and dabbled in power politics. Patrons both elite and humble have supported Buddhism for worldly benefits everywhere in Asia. Buddhism cannot escape its fundamental ties with society.

Buddhism without state support as in contemporary Japan, Korea, and the West is very much a new experiment in the long sweep of history. To survive, temples seemingly must take on some kind of social role, even if explicit state ties are no longer possible.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:16 am
ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:11 am I am afraid I have opened a can of worms. As far as I know master Dogen himself never encouraged anyone to attain one-time satori, rather realize the truth in every day situations. I would say a satori experience within Soto practice is a by-product of such practice which should be used appropriately - ditch one's satori experience for the sake of expressing the truth in everyday actions. I don't know any authentic master alive or dead who would speak about one's satori, at least not in a way that sounds like "Look how amazing I am, I am enlightened". And they hardly ever speak about satori of their colleagues or ancestors. Rather if they ever mention something like that, they speak about it like it is the most ordinary thing there is. I agree with Matylda that replacing the problem of attaining the truth with talking about fear and politics and gender problems is ridiculous. Teachers, both in the East and West must address the problem of attaining and expressing the truth. And I am sure there are such Soto teachers in the West and in the East. I think Japanese Soto has bad reputation for priests getting money for organizing funerals, whereas in the US Soto teachers seem to be preoccupied with politics and ethics. In both cases, where is the problem of the truth, the practicing dharma? But this has probably been always the case throughout the history of Buddhism. Authentic, genuine teachers are rare. Anyway, Shohaku Okumura, for instance, without emphasing satori experience, is a great example of a genuine Soto teacher having lived in the US for a long time. Shunryu Suzuki, without emphasing satori experience, was a wonderful teacher in the US. I am sure there are some successors of such and similar teachers who continue that authentic Buddhist teaching.
What exactly is it in Soto Zen praxis to "emphasize Satori experience" or "support satori"?
That's exactly what we cannot find in any authentic Soto teaching from Dogen Zenji up to Shunryu Suzuki or Shohaku Okumura.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:16 am
ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:11 am I am afraid I have opened a can of worms. As far as I know master Dogen himself never encouraged anyone to attain one-time satori, rather realize the truth in every day situations. I would say a satori experience within Soto practice is a by-product of such practice which should be used appropriately - ditch one's satori experience for the sake of expressing the truth in everyday actions. I don't know any authentic master alive or dead who would speak about one's satori, at least not in a way that sounds like "Look how amazing I am, I am enlightened". And they hardly ever speak about satori of their colleagues or ancestors. Rather if they ever mention something like that, they speak about it like it is the most ordinary thing there is. I agree with Matylda that replacing the problem of attaining the truth with talking about fear and politics and gender problems is ridiculous. Teachers, both in the East and West must address the problem of attaining and expressing the truth. And I am sure there are such Soto teachers in the West and in the East. I think Japanese Soto has bad reputation for priests getting money for organizing funerals, whereas in the US Soto teachers seem to be preoccupied with politics and ethics. In both cases, where is the problem of the truth, the practicing dharma? But this has probably been always the case throughout the history of Buddhism. Authentic, genuine teachers are rare. Anyway, Shohaku Okumura, for instance, without emphasing satori experience, is a great example of a genuine Soto teacher having lived in the US for a long time. Shunryu Suzuki, without emphasing satori experience, was a wonderful teacher in the US. I am sure there are some successors of such and similar teachers who continue that authentic Buddhist teaching.
What exactly is it in Soto Zen praxis to "emphasize Satori experience" or "support satori"?
That's exactly what we cannot find in any authentic Soto teaching from Dogen Zenji up to Shunryu Suzuki or Shohaku Okumura.
Can you please be more specific about what it is you are trying to critique? So far it's incredibly vague, to a point where no response is even possible, because we have no idea what this "other approach" you are talking about is.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
ryunin
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by ryunin »

Johnny Dangerous, all I am saying is that Kodo Sawaki's opinion of satori seems to be very different from what Matylda wrote in the thread called Soto Zen and the problem of satori. It is interesting that Matylda never mentioned Sawaki and his opinion of satori in that thread. As I already mentioned above, Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to encourage his students to attain enlighenment or talk about satori and how it is important in Zen.

Sawaki said: Zazen is not preparation for satori. And Shunryu Suzuki said: It is because we are already buddhas that we can practice.

So from the teachings of these two great masters it is clear that in authentic Soto Zen students are discouraged from looking for satori or making efforts to attain satori or talk about one's satori.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Did Kodo Sawaki support satori?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ryunin wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:48 pm Johnny Dangerous, all I am saying is that Kodo Sawaki's opinion of satori seems to be very different from what Matylda wrote in the thread called Soto Zen and the problem of satori. It is interesting that Matylda never mentioned Sawaki and his opinion of satori in that thread. As I already mentioned above, Shunryu Suzuki did not seem to encourage his students to attain enlighenment or talk about satori and how it is important in Zen.

Sawaki said: Zazen is not preparation for satori. And Shunryu Suzuki said: It is because we are already buddhas that we can practice.

So from the teachings of these two great masters it is clear that in authentic Soto Zen students are discouraged from looking for satori or making efforts to attain satori or talk about one's satori.
Ok, if you aren't even going to quote the person who you are trying to refute, then we don't need to do this, not a productive way to debate something.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Locked

Return to “Soto”