All for what?

Justmeagain
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All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
Justmeagain
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Re: All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:17 am Have you considered exploring a different Buddhist path? Zen is not for everyone. The pure land traditions, Vajrayana, analyticial sutra study like the Madhyamika and Yogacara traditions? Visionary sutra reading, as with absorption in the Hua Yan Sutra? There is more to Buddhism than "just sitting." Many respond better to "maximalism" like Vajrayana visualization than Zen "minimalism." And if you feel a special connection with Zen, consider shifting from Soto to Rinzai, the latter of which is more dynamic and involves more work with koans and the like. I am also a big fan of formal sutra study in depth. The internet is an ocean of resources. There is nothing wrong with texts and reading as a path. Just something to consider.
Thanks :anjali:
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Aryjna
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Re: All for what?

Post by Aryjna »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
It sounds like a matter of motivation. If the motivation is to be calmer and more comfortable, then you are disappointed if you find that you are not. In Mahayana, the motivation is supposed to be the liberation of all beings from samsara, which is a practically eternal commitment.

I am not saying this to be critical. I have noticed in myself that it is easy to have your motivation change without realizing it, which leads to unpleasant results, expectations, etc. There are also various texts that talk about using obstacles as opportunities for practice, though I do not know such texts specifically from a Zen background.
Justmeagain
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Re: All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

:namaste:
Justmeagain
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Re: All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:17 am Have you considered exploring a different Buddhist path? Zen is not for everyone. The pure land traditions, Vajrayana, analyticial sutra study like the Madhyamika and Yogacara traditions? Visionary sutra reading, as with absorption in the Hua Yan Sutra? There is more to Buddhism than "just sitting." Many respond better to "maximalism" like Vajrayana visualization than Zen "minimalism." And if you feel a special connection with Zen, consider shifting from Soto to Rinzai, the latter of which is more dynamic and involves more work with koans and the like. I am also a big fan of formal sutra study in depth. The internet is an ocean of resources. There is nothing wrong with texts and reading as a path. Just something to consider.
:cheers:

I was weaned in the Tibetan tradition and if I have learned anything from this process its that I may have been seduced by the accoutrements of other traditions at the sacrifice of the core motivation and practices. Does that make sense? I spent years in the Vajrayana moving to Soto as a part of a need for 'simplicity' (Dogen aside that is!!!)

Maybe I need to return to my roots as just sitting now, feels like just sitting.....!
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: All for what?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Just meditation won’t get the results you want usually, you need study and reflection, as well as some way of transforming your thoughts in daily life if your goal is to change your reactions.

If you over emphasize a given part, you get diminishing returns, and eventually disappointment.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Justmeagain
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Re: All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:45 am Just meditation won’t get the results you want usually, you need study and reflection, as well as some way of transforming your thoughts in daily life if your goal is to change your reactions.

If you over emphasize a given part, you get diminishing returns, and eventually disappointment.
:namaste: .....thanks!
Genjo Conan
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Re: All for what?

Post by Genjo Conan »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am
Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.
I guess I wonder: how do you know? How can you know how you would have reacted if the causes and conditions had been different?
gustafk
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Re: All for what?

Post by gustafk »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:40 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:17 am Have you considered exploring a different Buddhist path? Zen is not for everyone. The pure land traditions, Vajrayana, analyticial sutra study like the Madhyamika and Yogacara traditions? Visionary sutra reading, as with absorption in the Hua Yan Sutra? There is more to Buddhism than "just sitting." Many respond better to "maximalism" like Vajrayana visualization than Zen "minimalism." And if you feel a special connection with Zen, consider shifting from Soto to Rinzai, the latter of which is more dynamic and involves more work with koans and the like. I am also a big fan of formal sutra study in depth. The internet is an ocean of resources. There is nothing wrong with texts and reading as a path. Just something to consider.
:cheers:

I was weaned in the Tibetan tradition and if I have learned anything from this process its that I may have been seduced by the accoutrements of other traditions at the sacrifice of the core motivation and practices. Does that make sense? I spent years in the Vajrayana moving to Soto as a part of a need for 'simplicity' (Dogen aside that is!!!)

Maybe I need to return to my roots as just sitting now, feels like just sitting.....!
Oh, I recognize this.

I have always been a hard headed Theravada type, with a longing to Zen. I had this idea that Theravada must be more original. Perhaps it is and at the same time not. Now I am turning to zen, and I feel, that maybe I wasn't really ready for it until now. Perhaps I am not now either? =D

We all have to find our way to the summit, and once we're there, perhaps we see that there was no mountain at all.
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Queequeg
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Re: All for what?

Post by Queequeg »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
You didn't fail in any way. Real life acutely intruded on you. You didn't handle it like a Jedi master but so what? You had a stress test and found out you have more work to do. Things worked out.

Chanting practices might be more adaptable in periods of acute stress. It helps to chant out loud persistently when the mind chatter is loud and persistent. I know this is a zen forum, but developing a more complete tool box of practices might be helpful in the future.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Justmeagain
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Re: All for what?

Post by Justmeagain »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:42 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
You didn't fail in any way. Real life acutely intruded on you. You didn't handle it like a Jedi master but so what? You had a stress test and found out you have more work to do. Things worked out.
Thanks.....that's really kind and very helpful. Big Bow to you!!
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clyde
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Re: All for what?

Post by clyde »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:42 pm Chanting practices might be more adaptable in periods of acute stress. It helps to chant out loud persistently when the mind chatter is loud and persistent. I know this is a zen forum, but developing a more complete tool box of practices might be helpful in the future.
Developing a ‘tool box’ is an excellent suggestion for all and chanting is definitely in the Zen ‘tool box’, as are prostrations and walking.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Sherap Nyima
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Re: All for what?

Post by Sherap Nyima »

Gaining mind is suffering mind, so suffer
Malcolm
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Re: All for what?

Post by Malcolm »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
If you think you are a basket case now, imagine how homicidal you would be otherwise. Just a thought.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: All for what?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am …all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.
There’s a term for that:
“Moment of truth”

Sometimes you miss. That’s probably okay.

I think many people have had similar experiences. I know I have (and moved twice in the last 7 years) But instead of turning you away from practice, use this as an opportunity to examine where the authenticity of your practice is. It’s very easy to do years of sitting and rituals and chanting and to think that’s the practice. But those are all just supports. That doesn’t mean the years don’t matter or that nothing has been gained. What I mean is, really look at your Dharma practice now, while it’s cut open.
You know, before you move, you get rid of a lot of stuff you don’t need. You decide what is important and what isn’t. It’s good to do that internally as well. The Dharma teachings, and what you have accumulated, are rare treasures. But they may also be packed in a box with a lot of crap you thought you needed but didn’t, and that might also be why it was hard to find it when you needed it.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: All for what?

Post by reiun »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:42 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:05 am We moved house recently. The stress was untenable. The inadequacy of the whole process in this country left me with no sleep, tense during the day, unable to sit as I was obsessed with finding somewhere for my family to live. It was without doubt an experience I will NEVER willingly partake of again. Renting for us from now on. We are now renting a beautiful a 200 year old farmhouse up in the hills in Somerset.

Why disappointed? Because all the years of sitting, the cold mornings, the retreats, the chanting and the study meant nothing. Because when I needed that inner resource to help me manage and cope it wasn't there. I reacted like someone who had never sat on a cushion in their life.

I struggle gather the inspiration to sit now.

Maybe I should have gone to church instead!!! 🤔

Probably misguided but there it is.
You didn't fail in any way. Real life acutely intruded on you. You didn't handle it like a Jedi master but so what? You had a stress test and found out you have more work to do. Things worked out.

Chanting practices might be more adaptable in periods of acute stress. It helps to chant out loud persistently when the mind chatter is loud and persistent. I know this is a zen forum, but developing a more complete tool box of practices might be helpful in the future.
:good:

Life popped a humble on you in the form of the First Noble Truth. Stay strong! Do zazen. By all means use zen tools like chanting, kinhin, etc., and your best shot trying to actualize your practice.
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Hazel
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Re: All for what?

Post by Hazel »


As this is the Soto Zen subforum, I have removed suggestions to try other paths. While I am 100% positive they were well-meaning and thoughtful, in this context they're proselytization, however unintentional.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

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jimmi
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Re: All for what?

Post by jimmi »

reiun wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:57 pm Life popped a humble on you in the form of the First Noble Truth.
:thumbsup:
It is sometimes useful to investigate dukkha samadhi.
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Matt J
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Re: All for what?

Post by Matt J »

One of my teachers says, no matter how much you think you have accomplished in practice, there is always something out there in the world that is even bigger than your practice. I think a better way to think about your practice is looking at it overall--- are you overall kinder, better able to handle stress, etc. I don't see it as an all or nothing thing. Just because you met something bigger than your practice doesn't mean the practice is worthless. And, like others have pointed out, it may have been much worse without practice.

Sometimes, these things can be both painful and liberating. It forces us to let go of our complacency, our ego, our clinging to fruits, etc.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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GrapeLover
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Re: All for what?

Post by GrapeLover »

Hazel wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:51 pm
As this is the Soto Zen subforum, I have removed suggestions to try other paths. While I am 100% positive they were well-meaning and thoughtful, in this context they're proselytization, however unintentional.
Öld topic anyway, OP hasn't been around since last Novemb
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