Soto zen and problem of satori

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Matt J
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

I don't think this is a bad idea, per se, but other forms of Buddhism understand that this is not an instant thing. For example, things appear initially to be solid, graspable, fulfilling, etc. Not only does this occur at a conscious level, but there are deeply rooted habits of mind that remain hidden from view. By working with Buddhist practices, we actually come to see that what we thought was solid is not solid, what we though was graspable is not graspable, and what we thought was fulfilling is not fulfilling. In this way, a natural type of letting go occurs.

It seems to me the practice of Shikantaza absent these insights is a shallow practice. If we are pretending to have no gaining idea, when there is still grasping, etc. going on doesn't seem like a good use of time. And, if over time, these gaining ideas dissipate, well then you have a gradual path.
Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:32 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:01 pmSure, but at this point, it is not really insight since there is nothing left for a buddha to do.
Just as there is nothing left to be done in zazen, or as it is sometimes put: nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得 - anupalabdha).
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:12 pmAnd yet Dogen talks about gaining thorough understanding, what maddening inconsistencies.
The thorough understanding of what?

'What is sudden awakening (tongo 頓悟)? Answer: Sudden is to suddenly remove false thoughts (muunen 妄念). Awakening is to awaken to nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得).'
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment; X63n1223p18a10)

'Additionally, if a person retaining the concept of there being anything to be gained (ushotoku 有所得) generates the bodhi resolve and then proceeds to cultivate kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity, giving, moral virtue, patience, vigor, dhyāna absorption, and wisdom, doing so for an incalculable number of asaṃkhyeyas of kalpas, one should realize that, on account of retaining the concept of something to be gained, such a person will not succeed in leaving behind birth and death and will not succeed in progressing towards bodhi.'
(Vasubandhu's Treatise on the Bodhisattva Vow, ch 10; T32n1659p515c12-15)
Don’t you just love dancing on books?

Looks like we didn’t need any of this Zen stuff to begin with: Nagarjuna writes, “Nothing here to establish, nothing to remove, when reality is truly seen, liberation.”
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:12 pmAnd yet Dogen talks about gaining thorough understanding, what maddening inconsistencies.
The thorough understanding of what?

'What is sudden awakening (tongo 頓悟)? Answer: Sudden is to suddenly remove false thoughts (muunen 妄念). Awakening is to awaken to nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得).'
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment; X63n1223p18a10)

'Additionally, if a person retaining the concept of there being anything to be gained (ushotoku 有所得) generates the bodhi resolve and then proceeds to cultivate kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity, giving, moral virtue, patience, vigor, dhyāna absorption, and wisdom, doing so for an incalculable number of asaṃkhyeyas of kalpas, one should realize that, on account of retaining the concept of something to be gained, such a person will not succeed in leaving behind birth and death and will not succeed in progressing towards bodhi.'
(Vasubandhu's Treatise on the Bodhisattva Vow, ch 10; T32n1659p515c12-15)
It’s not that simple 😂. Even in the state of clear, things still arise! Remember Unborn! Refer to sixth Patriarch statement! In direct contemplation (gradual), we should know what arises? Because all of that is called appearance!
Extremely difficult 😂
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:55 pmBy working with Buddhist practices, we actually come to see that what we thought was solid is not solid, what we though was graspable is not graspable, and what we thought was fulfilling is not fulfilling. In this way, a natural type of letting go occurs.
How about going directly to letting go of thoughts (hishiryo)?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

:lol:

Thoughts are only one component of the five aggregates.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:03 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:55 pmBy working with Buddhist practices, we actually come to see that what we thought was solid is not solid, what we though was graspable is not graspable, and what we thought was fulfilling is not fulfilling. In this way, a natural type of letting go occurs.
How about going directly to letting go of thoughts (hishiryo)?
“Let go of letting go.” Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

jake wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:00 am The word shikantaza is "calm/insight sitting", "stopping/seeing", the two always go together. There is ample evidence that's the proper etomology from the Chinese. "Just Sitting" is a similar sounding word (but different characters) hence it's been picked up by Dogen and others. Go back and look at all the old Patriarchs and you'll always see calm/insight. And it couldn't be anything other than anyway.
As already stated earlier this is not what the kanji mean in shikantaza. So you need more support for this claim.
Ugh.. Ive gone down this road before but I'm not a scholar.. I'll have to reconstruct the entire research as I don't keep notes.. keep posted, I'll get back to you on this
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:53 am Thank you.

Can you answer my question now?
Yes. Beyond the calmest, quietest, most one-pointed concentration is, beyond senses, beyond mind, dropping off of body and mind, nothing other than the staring into Sunyata. Not seen with the senses of the mind, but awake, aware. Seeing Things As they Truly Are, empty, but an emptiness that is interdependent with all skandhas. It isn't a Void in as much as it's also Pure Light. These words are like trying to draw details with giant crayons as big as one's hand. Just a few scribblings. My life will most likely be too short to fill out the design of what I'm getting at. And my own meditation would suffer if i attend to too much of this. When Chögyam Trungpa said life is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute I at first thought it made no sense at all. Now I know. My reply to Sudden versus Gradual is: all this really is only one instant.
Last edited by kusulu on Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

kusulu wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:52 am
jake wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:00 am The word shikantaza is "calm/insight sitting", "stopping/seeing", the two always go together. There is ample evidence that's the proper etomology from the Chinese. "Just Sitting" is a similar sounding word (but different characters) hence it's been picked up by Dogen and others. Go back and look at all the old Patriarchs and you'll always see calm/insight. And it couldn't be anything other than anyway.
As already stated earlier this is not what the kanji mean in shikantaza. So you need more support for this claim.
Ugh.. Ive gone down this road before but I'm not a scholar.. I'll have to reconstruct the entire research as I don't keep notes.. keep posted, I'll get back to you on this
https://www.ddmbachicago.org/chan/metho ... umination/
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... umination/

Master Sheng Yen has the correct understanding of the History of Silent Illumination (mo-chao) and how that practice became Shikantaza..

.furthermore Oxford Dictionary has this entry: "Chih-kuan (Skt., śamatha-vipaśyanā; Jap., shikan). Meditation methods in the T'ien-t'ai Buddhist school. ‘Chih’ is the calming of the restless and distracted mind; ‘Kuan’ is the insight which then arises. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions"

But thats not were i first heard this. It's in the Dogen's original text, so i'll keep looking for it.
Last edited by kusulu on Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

Chih-kuan (Skt., śamatha-vipaśyanā; Jap., shikan)
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by michaeljc »

Matylda wrote
Many claim and recall the authority of Dogen. Which I think is really an abuse.
This gets in my gizzard too. I see them as no different to the bible bangers who can immediately jump to some chapter and verse to justify the view they are trying to ram down another's throat.

I don't see Dogen as a Soto man. Soto, that is, according to the modern definition.

Dogen is way beyond all of this. We would have to practice under him to even begin to relate. His work is riddled with koans. Those that claim to understand him make me chuckle.

A truly lovable man.

m
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:58 pmLooks like we didn’t need any of this Zen stuff to begin with: Nagarjuna writes, “Nothing here to establish, nothing to remove, when reality is truly seen, liberation.”
From Nagarjuna this fits nicely:

'Then again, if the bodhisattva refrains from taking up the practice of any particular dharma, because he does not apprehend (futoku 不得) any dharma whatsoever, he may thereby succeed in realizing prajñāpāramitā.' ... 'If one is able to practice the dharma of “no practice” in this manner, in every case, nothing whatsoever is gained (mushotoku 無所得). Inverted views, falseness, and afflictions are finally not produced at all. Because one remains as pure as empty space, one succeeds then in realizing the true character of dharmas. One takes having nothing whatsoever which is gained (mushotoku 無所得) as that which is gained.'
(Mahaprajnaparamitasastra 30.5.3; T25n1509p197a12-13, 24-26)
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:00 am“Let go of letting go.” Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen
That's a proliferation of ideas about letting go, nevertheless, Baizhang Huaihai taught a version of it with three stages:

'If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching.This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 30-31)

But something more pertinent from him:

'Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said, You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged.'

(p 77-78)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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Astus wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:49 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:58 pmLooks like we didn’t need any of this Zen stuff to begin with: Nagarjuna writes, “Nothing here to establish, nothing to remove, when reality is truly seen, liberation.”
From Nagarjuna this fits nicely:

'Then again, if the bodhisattva refrains from taking up the practice of any particular dharma, because he does not apprehend (futoku 不得) any dharma whatsoever, he may thereby succeed in realizing prajñāpāramitā.' ... 'If one is able to practice the dharma of “no practice” in this manner, in every case, nothing whatsoever is gained (mushotoku 無所得). Inverted views, falseness, and afflictions are finally not produced at all. Because one remains as pure as empty space, one succeeds then in realizing the true character of dharmas. One takes having nothing whatsoever which is gained (mushotoku 無所得) as that which is gained.'
(Mahaprajnaparamitasastra 30.5.3; T25n1509p197a12-13, 24-26)
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:00 am“Let go of letting go.” Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen
That's a proliferation of ideas about letting go, nevertheless, Baizhang Huaihai taught a version of it with three stages:

'If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching.This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 30-31)

But something more pertinent from him:

'Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said, You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged.'

(p 77-78)
To last text.

Nice! But do you have a job and stress?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:49 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:00 am“Let go of letting go.” Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen
That's a proliferation of ideas about letting go,
Nah, you just like typing out citations, which only increases proliferation. More words = more proliferation.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:53 pmMore words = more proliferation.
Okumura roshi on Dogen:

'Although he advised his students not to waste time arguing or criticizing, and he himself tried not to argue, he was not able to follow his own advice. I rather like his inconsistency on this point. I feel like he was an actual human being.'
(The Mountains and Waters Sūtra: A Practitioner's Guide to Dōgen's "Sansuikyo", 2-2)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:53 pmMore words = more proliferation.
Okumura roshi on Dogen:

'Although he advised his students not to waste time arguing or criticizing, and he himself tried not to argue, he was not able to follow his own advice. I rather like his inconsistency on this point. I feel like he was an actual human being.'
(The Mountains and Waters Sūtra: A Practitioner's Guide to Dōgen's "Sansuikyo", 2-2)
It seems Dogen had a lot of proliferation.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

I don't think it is possible, unless one is of the highest capacity.

It is like learning to relax the body. When people take up various energy arts, the typical first instruction is relax. Inevitably, no matter how relaxed you feel, the teacher comes by and shows you all the points of tension. They say "Relax," and we say "But I am relaxed!" And so it goes. We're go tense that we don't know what deep relaxation is, or how far it goes.

The same goes for grasping. It is so deep, complex, and subtle that to think one merely directly lets go is a bit of a fantasy. In many cases (especially n the American Zen community), this type of thinking leads to abuse, sex scandals, etc.
Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:03 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:55 pmBy working with Buddhist practices, we actually come to see that what we thought was solid is not solid, what we though was graspable is not graspable, and what we thought was fulfilling is not fulfilling. In this way, a natural type of letting go occurs.
How about going directly to letting go of thoughts (hishiryo)?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:03 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:55 pmBy working with Buddhist practices, we actually come to see that what we thought was solid is not solid, what we though was graspable is not graspable, and what we thought was fulfilling is not fulfilling. In this way, a natural type of letting go occurs.
How about going directly to letting go of thoughts (hishiryo)?
Have you ever tried to hold onto a thought? I think you will find it slips right through your fingers.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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kusulu wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:05 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:53 am Thank you.

Can you answer my question now?
Yes. Beyond the calmest, quietest, most one-pointed concentration is, beyond senses, beyond mind, dropping off of body and mind, nothing other than the staring into Sunyata. Not seen with the senses of the mind, but awake, aware. Seeing Things As they Truly Are, empty, but an emptiness that is interdependent with all skandhas. It isn't a Void in as much as it's also Pure Light. These words are like trying to draw details with giant crayons as big as one's hand. Just a few scribblings. My life will most likely be too short to fill out the design of what I'm getting at. And my own meditation would suffer if i attend to too much of this. When Chögyam Trungpa said life is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute I at first thought it made no sense at all. Now I know. My reply to Sudden versus Gradual is: all this really is only one instant.
How is “that” know empty empty in itself?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Matt J wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:54 pmI don't think it is possible, unless one is of the highest capacity.
Apparently Dogen believed zazen to be applicable to everyone.

'Ejo asked, “If so, what thing or what practice should we choose to devote ourselves to among the various ways of practice of the buddha-dharma?”
Dogen replied, “It depends upon one’s character or capability, however, up to now, it is zazen which has been handed down and concentrated on in the communities of the patriarchs. This practice is suitable for all people and can be practiced by those of superior, mediocre, or inferior capabilities.'

(Shobogenzo Zuimonki 1.14)

'If one concentrates on practicing zazen continuously, even an ignorant person, who does not understand a single question, can be superior to an intelligent person who has been studying for a long time.'
(5.23)

'The sages in the past did not necessarily have golden bones. Ancient practitioners did not all have superior capabilities. Not such a long time has passed since the Buddha’s death. Even in the age of the Buddha not everyone was sharp witted. Some were good and others were not. Among the monks, there were some who did incredibly evil things, and others who had a very low intellect. None of them, however, demeaned themselves or failed to arouse bodhi-mind; none failed to study the Way on the grounds of not being a vessel of the dharma.'
(6.2)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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