Soto zen and problem of satori

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Matylda
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Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Modern soto zen was finally shaped after the 2 WW going through deep and strong changes in the 19th century and actually is now significantly different from what it was used to be still in the 19th century.
First thing is that in Japanese soto zen traditionally there were nyushitsu and dokusan. Those are private interviews with roshi – the zen master. Nyushitsu is more formal, while dokusan is much more private. This practice disappeared entirely from soto monasteries. Why? Short answer - Due to the lack of realisation and the necessity of transmitting this important goal to the next generation, then it was followed by extreme and sharp decrease of practiced zazen periods, and finally wrong and one sided understanding of shikan taza was born, which excluded any experience of satori.
Public Soto temples are not any longer places of strong zen practice, but they fulfill their social and religious role very well.
Monasteries on the oher side busy themselves with much labor, cleaning, learning rituals and conducting rituals themselves. Big monasteries have many visitors each day and they offer tour over all buildings an places to show, worth of seeing for any reason, for which they charge money. Be it some famous piece of anything worth showing and paying for being shown. Zazen is only short daily routine added to much busier daily schedule.
What is worth of notice is that untill the 19th century many soto teachers still used koan in training their students. Soto masters used it in some different way than for example Hakuin descendents. As is clear from dokusan between Fugai and Tanzan, let use them as an example, koan was indispensable, as well as dokusan - private interview. Even if one practiced shikan taza one had to be confronted with hard and difficult questions from the teacher in dokusan. Zazen was not time for spacious form of meditaion and relaxtion.
But of course there are proofs, that dokusan was practiced – in Sojiji there are still kept old wooden boards with dokusan calligraphy. Soto manuals for monks have section about dokusan and nyushitsu. But they are not practiced anymore. Only traces are left.
There was since long ago the tendency of falling in doing-nothing zazen in soto monasteries, but once they did away with koan, dokusan and nyushitsu, there was no burning quest anymore. Then, only nice theories concerning shika taza were born out of the situation. There was no one to ask practitioners how they are doing in zazen and nobody to see their insights, samadhi etc.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

In dokusan when it was still practiced in soto zen in Japan, even while doing shikan taza one had to give answers to koans or difficult questions, which were used to penetrate depth of disciple's samadhi or realisation and it forced practitoners to work hard in zazen, giving their all to it. So nice descriptions, one may read today about shikan taza, simply did not work at all and for such answers disciple rather got stick from the master. Big talk about shikan taza was simply put down in a second. Neither any intellectual presentation was accepted.

Hakuin of rinzai sharply criticized zen monks doing-nothing, but his blade was directed mostly against Bankei and Bankei's group, actually rinzai folk. But Hakuin was often teasing Tenkei Denson - famous soto master - to do something with the situation, since they knew each other well, and Tenkei at the same time was a close friend of Bankei. Hakuin criticism was not against soto or any other particular tradition, he was pointing just that doing nothing in zazen and sitting quietly is not zen at all. He was not against soto zen specially, actually he did practice with soto teachers as well. But for sure his criticism was also pointed at soto monks who forgot what zen practice is for.

Tenkei on his side had struggled with soto monks, who wanted - for good reason anyway - to change the system of dharma transmission. He was not in favor of the whole matter and said that it is satori which counts in fact for actual zen transmission, not just formality of the dharma transmission. For him genuine realisation of daigo – great satori, was the only gate to the dharma transmission, not formality itself. In fact Tenkei's worries became today's bitter reality. Since 300 years ago, shiho – or dharma transmission in soto became most formalistic endeavor. Shiho can easily get all kind of people. Some even never sat in zazen, some sat zazen for sometime, from 6 to 12 months and they gave up. But they are dharma heirs! Dharma holders! Zen masers from the formal point of view! Some people claim strong zazen practice, but they never got to dokusan room to confront roshi or passed through the exam to check their realisation. Anyway there was nobody to check their experience. So in soto all parties are happy. Those who do zazen or not do zazen. In fact they support each other very well.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

What made the Soto church change its approach? Was it to purge it from "foreign elements" and return to Dogen's ideals? Apparently Dogen was no fan of kensho focused Zen.
Also, what could be lacking from the simple form of just sitting to require all the other elements added?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Kensho as a zen term is used more by rinzai. Soto vocabulary is more into satori or daigo - great satori. Proponents of Dogen like Bokusan in the 19th century never opposed the term satori or daigo. Bokusan, the main figure responsible for hardline shikan taza in soto has in his biography daigo at age of 40. Also inko shomei was not foreign at all since he wrote clearly that he got inka from Gettan Rojin.
But biographies of people like Bokusan dramatically differ from modern soto zen and its approach.
Bokusan harshly attacked rinzai kensho tenets, for good reason, and he used for it writtings of Hakuin himself so was difficult opponent for rinzai defenders. But there is no way he ever denied satori or daigo - just opposite. It is more than clear from his writtings.
As for shikan taza if it is lacking samadhi or proper instruction, it becomes just sitting like any other quiet sitting. No pain no gain. Shikan taza is a way of complete realisation and liberation, if it is lacking and the guidance in form of instructions, dokusan etc. given by realised or enlightened teacher then it is not really shikan taza. One cannot teach shikan taza without satori. It is what really changed soto school in Japan. not kicking out strange lelemnts. Shikan taza or koan are very secondary issues. Satori and enlightened teacher is at stake. The method is nt really question. But to say that shikan taza encompasses everything and lacks nothing becomes pure nonsense if spoken by people who have no clear realisation.
It is how nonsense like talks and theories repeated by many were created and how zazen died lacking totally power of zazen samadhi.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Lillian »

Thank you, Matylda, it is very interesting.

My teacher's teacher, Matsuoka Roshi, often said that there are many problems with the state of Zen in Japan. I don't know except for my short times there.

I would just say that Soto Zen is not one thing, or one definition. Shikantaza has many interpretations, and Soto Zen is overall doing very very well in the United States these days (where I am from). Also, it seems to have put down roots here in the UK too, although I am only catching a glimpse. We also have different approaches to Kensho, including the total stopping and realizing that Matsuoka and others emphasize.

I know that Soto Zen in Japan is also a few different approaches and interpretations. Matylda, the way your discuss things, are you connected to the Harada Daiun Sogaku and his students? They often seem to express things in such ways and have such interpretations of Soto Zen.

Lillian
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:43 pm In dokusan when it was still practiced in soto zen in Japan, even while doing shikan taza one had to give answers to koans or difficult questions, which were used to penetrate depth of disciple's samadhi or realisation and it forced practitoners to work hard in zazen, giving their all to it. So nice descriptions, one may read today about shikan taza, simply did not work at all and for such answers disciple rather got stick from the master. Big talk about shikan taza was simply put down in a second. Neither any intellectual presentation was accepted.

Hakuin of rinzai sharply criticized zen monks doing-nothing, but his blade was directed mostly against Bankei and Bankei's group, actually rinzai folk. But Hakuin was often teasing Tenkei Denson - famous soto master - to do something with the situation, since they knew each other well, and Tenkei at the same time was a close friend of Bankei. Hakuin criticism was not against soto or any other particular tradition, he was pointing just that doing nothing in zazen and sitting quietly is not zen at all. He was not against soto zen specially, actually he did practice with soto teachers as well. But for sure his criticism was also pointed at soto monks who forgot what zen practice is for.

Tenkei on his side had struggled with soto monks, who wanted - for good reason anyway - to change the system of dharma transmission. He was not in favor of the whole matter and said that it is satori which counts in fact for actual zen transmission, not just formality of the dharma transmission. For him genuine realisation of daigo – great satori, was the only gate to the dharma transmission, not formality itself. In fact Tenkei's worries became today's bitter reality. Since 300 years ago, shiho – or dharma transmission in soto became most formalistic endeavor. Shiho can easily get all kind of people. Some even never sat in zazen, some sat zazen for sometime, from 6 to 12 months and they gave up. But they are dharma heirs! Dharma holders! Zen masers from the formal point of view! Some people claim strong zazen practice, but they never got to dokusan room to confront roshi or passed through the exam to check their realisation. Anyway there was nobody to check their experience. So in soto all parties are happy. Those who do zazen or not do zazen. In fact they support each other very well.
Strictly speaking, Zen is a term for enlightened nature. You’ve touched on a few important issues:

1) It appears correct koan is meant to test one’s realization and the answer has to come from that.

2) Realization isn’t confirmed by teacher. In my opinion this is a big issue. In my opinion, experience needed to be confirmed by the person, then by the teacher.

Full disclosure: before I offer my opinion on the internet. I am still deluded and know where I am deluded. What I have been doing is passing the description of enlightenment. Of course, it’s quite treacherous (not to create doubt in people on the forum who have possibly reached it) that even in the experience of emptiness, there is almost no thoughts remaining, there still might still be traces of consciousness or ignorance left. Consciousness can manifest different states. With that in mind, I don’t know people’s experience. I can only speak for me. I hope to not create doubt in people. It’s not uncommon for people to surpass their teachers or peers who are still deluded. That’s another big issue. The teachers/peers then pull people back in.

3) Since Zen is a Mahayana path, there needs to be a work after enlightenment which is working to further develop wisdom and perfect all skillful means. I think what often happens is people leave this physical body and go, so that makes not a complete enlightenment. This feature is lacking I think and I am just making a sweeping statement. The reason is a lot of stuff are not discussed online and only kept in lineage but us modern day need this open talk (in my opinion). It’s forbidden there is a good reason for that without samadhi karma will pull one back out. This erks me, so I openly discuss any insights teachings I’ve received. That just me, my choice.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Lillian wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:25 pm Thank you, Matylda, it is very interesting.

My teacher's teacher, Matsuoka Roshi, often said that there are many problems with the state of Zen in Japan. I don't know except for my short times there.

I would just say that Soto Zen is not one thing, or one definition. Shikantaza has many interpretations, and Soto Zen is overall doing very very well in the United States these days (where I am from). Also, it seems to have put down roots here in the UK too, although I am only catching a glimpse. We also have different approaches to Kensho, including the total stopping and realizing that Matsuoka and others emphasize.

I know that Soto Zen in Japan is also a few different approaches and interpretations. Matylda, the way your discuss things, are you connected to the Harada Daiun Sogaku and his students? They often seem to express things in such ways and have such interpretations of Soto Zen.

Lillian
Very indirectly to Daiun Roshi, whom I never met. But I knew 4 of his direct successors. But I am saying not from the point of opinion of Hosshinji folk, but from what I could see myself.. I met and worked for different soto teachers including heirs of Sawaki roshi, Hashimoto Eko, and some others, whom I respect for their life long devotion. Mostly I was just asked to help in some way... As I said it is not question of shikan taza, koan etc. it is problem of satori which evaporated from soto practice. It is problem that people who themselves claimed to have daigo and got inka, are used today and their teaching about shikan taza to find an excuse, and say - we do not need satori, shikan taza is enough. Really, is that so?
Many claim and recall the authority of Dogen. Which I think is really an abuse. Do they practice as he prescribed? At least 8 hours shikan taza a day?
Last edited by Matylda on Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:48 pm
Lillian wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:25 pm Thank you, Matylda, it is very interesting.

My teacher's teacher, Matsuoka Roshi, often said that there are many problems with the state of Zen in Japan. I don't know except for my short times there.

I would just say that Soto Zen is not one thing, or one definition. Shikantaza has many interpretations, and Soto Zen is overall doing very very well in the United States these days (where I am from). Also, it seems to have put down roots here in the UK too, although I am only catching a glimpse. We also have different approaches to Kensho, including the total stopping and realizing that Matsuoka and others emphasize.

I know that Soto Zen in Japan is also a few different approaches and interpretations. Matylda, the way your discuss things, are you connected to the Harada Daiun Sogaku and his students? They often seem to express things in such ways and have such interpretations of Soto Zen.

Lillian
Very indirectly to Daiun Roshi. I knew 4 of hi successors. But I am saying from what I could see myself.. I met and worked for different soto teachers including heirs of Sawaki roshi, Hashimoto Eko, and some others, whom I respect for ther life long devotion. Mostly I was just asked to help in some way... As I said it is not question of shikan taza, koan etc. it is prblem of satori which evaporated from soto practice. It is problem that people who theselves claimed to have daigo and got inka, that their teaching about shikan taza is used today as excuse - we do not need satori shikan taza is enough. really?
Many claim authority of Dogen. Do they practice as he prescribed? At least 8 hours shikan taza a day?
To clarify I recognize characteristics of strict discipline and practice of Soto while still offer my opinion which isn’t Soto.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

If just sitting is dropping body and mind, and dropping body and mind is great realisation, what need for anything else? Or is that not so?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:31 pm If just sitting is dropping body and mind, and dropping body and mind is great realisation, what need for anything else? Or is that not so?
I think silent illumination is a better description?
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Astus wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:31 pm If just sitting is dropping body and mind, and dropping body and mind is great realisation, what need for anything else? Or is that not so?
Well, do people really think that they are Dogens? It was his experience not others.. who gave them permission to repeat constantly his words? Words of his experience? Dogen himself? Parrots may repeat human voice but it does not mean that they are humans... is sitting really dropping of body and mind for soto folk? how do they do it? who has shown them how this looks like? there is no sign of it actually. It is this terrible point when things start to go completely wrong in soto today regardless wether east or west. It is repeating without knowing what it means in fact. There is not even trace of this state.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:49 pmWell, do people really think that they are Dogens? It was his experience not others..
It's what Dogen taught, not just experienced. But if Dogen's teachings cannot be followed, then there can be no heirs to talk of, so what is Soto then?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Astus wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:10 pm
Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:49 pmWell, do people really think that they are Dogens? It was his experience not others..
It's what Dogen taught, not just experienced. But if Dogen's teachings cannot be followed, then there can be no heirs to talk of, so what is Soto then?
Again repeating without really knowing ends in nothing. Soto has nothing special or different to offer, than any other zen school - it is satori, daigo and liberation. For this one has to work hard. And if Dogen is to be followed then 8 hours zazen daily is a must. But even more important is a master, one who really realised dropping of body and mind. Why this teaching of Dogen is not followed? Why it is always picking up something without any genuine context? Some teachings of Dogen are ok, other are forgotten. In Gakudo yojin shu he openly wrote about it, what is the kye point of zen practice.. there is nothing about dropping of mind etc anyway.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:49 pm. There is not even trace of this state.
I hope I understand what you mean. They said traceless because if it’s traceable then that’s how karma traces us which is rebirth.

I guess 8 hrs daily is admirable.

Other practitioners of other Zen might not do that. Not sure if anyone besides possibly monks of other Zen anywhere but their schedule is not 8 hrs of Zen meditation either. Most people are householders.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:18 pm
Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:49 pm. There is not even trace of this state.
I hope I understand what you mean. They said traceless because if it’s traceable then that’s how karma traces us which is rebirth.

I guess 8 hrs daily is admirable.

Other practitioners of other Zen might not do that. Not sure if anyone besides possibly monks of other Zen anywhere but their schedule is not 8 hrs of Zen meditation either. Most people are householders.
Yes, that is true, householders specially in the West. In rinzai monasteries there is often close to 8 hours including obligatory yaza till 23 or 24 hours. Actually rinzai does much more zazen than soto. Regular soto monastery everyday would have one hour zazen, only in the morning. This is the fact. Eiheiji has additional 2 hours in the evening. But it is honzan whic claims most rigorous practice in Japan. This claim i doubt.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by reiun »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:31 pm In dokusan when it was still practiced in soto zen in Japan, even while doing shikan taza one had to give answers to koans or difficult questions, which were used to penetrate depth of disciple's samadhi or realisation and it forced practitoners to work hard in zazen, giving their all to it. So nice descriptions, one may read today about shikan taza, simply did not work at all and for such answers disciple rather got stick from the master.
. . .
What is worth of notice is that untill the 19th century many soto teachers still used koan in training their students. Soto masters used it in some different way than for example Hakuin descendents. As is clear from dokusan between Fugai and Tanzan, let use them as an example, koan was indispensable, as well as dokusan - private interview. Even if one practiced shikan taza one had to be confronted with hard and difficult questions from the teacher in dokusan. Zazen was not time for spacious form of meditaion and relaxtion.
79. Tê-shan’s Ultimate Teaching [THE IRON FLUTE] 100 Zen Koans
Hsüeh-fêng asked Tê-shan, “Can I also share the ultimate teaching the old patriarchs attained?”
FÜGAI: He still has a tendency of kleptomania.
Tê-shan hit him with a stick, saying, “What are you talking about?”
FÜGAI: He is a kind old grandmother!
Hsüeh-fêng did not realize Tê-shan’s meaning, so the next day he repeated the question.
FÜGAI: Is not one head enough?
Tê-shan answered, “Zen has no words, neither does it have anything to give.”
FÜGAI: Poor statement.
Yen-t’ou heard about the dialogue and said, “Tê-shan has an iron backbone, but he spoils Zen with his soft words.”
FÜGAI: One plays the flute and the other dances.
NYOGEN: Yen-t’ou was a senior student under Tê-shan at the time Hsüeh-fêng was studying at the monastery. FÜGAI is as bad an intruder as Yen-t’ou.
GENRŌ: Tê-shan stole the sheep and Yen-t’ou proved it. Such a father! Such a son!
NYOGEN: A noble once told Confucius about an honest subject who proved in court that his father had stolen a sheep. Genrō took his comments from The Analects. A law-abiding person should stand for the law without regard for human sentiment. At least Zen must be carried without a shadow of sentiment. A good teacher will never spare a good student.
GENRŌ:
Dragon head and snake tail!
[FÜGAI: What a monster!]
A toy stops a child’s crying.
[Valuable toy.]
Yen-t’ou spoke like a bystander,
[A bystander can see.]
All for the allegiance of the Dharma.
[Only a tithe was paid.]
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Lillian »

Matylda, that is very interesting.

Matsuoka Roshi used to say, though, that there are two ways to find the Mississippi River when standing in the Mississippi River. One way is to push very hard to find the river, and one way is to stop very very still to realize the wetness. (I forget the exact quote, I don't have my books here) In either case, we are not only finding the river, but we are the waves and stream of the river itself, so like the river looking for itself!

I think that the second kind of Soto practice and Shikantaza is much more common in the America. It is very powerful practice, because the river finds itself either by looking for the river or by realizing its flowing all along. Matsuoka used to say that we should flow in Shikantaza, and that the whole river of the universe is the same flowing that we are! That is also Satori.

Dear, I so much agree with you that people just sit without purpose in shikantaza, and it is a real shame.

By the way, he also said that long sitting is the river, and short sitting is the river. So, sitting is not a matter of long or short. However, sometimes we need to sit very long and hard to understand this deep down.

Did you ever meet him in Japan, or was he before your time?
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Lillian wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:11 am Matylda, that is very interesting.

Matsuoka Roshi used to say, though, that there are two ways to find the Mississippi River when standing in the Mississippi River. One way is to push very hard to find the river, and one way is to stop very very still to realize the wetness. (I forget the exact quote, I don't have my books here) In either case, we are not only finding the river, but we are the waves and stream of the river itself, so like the river looking for itself!

I think that the second kind of Soto practice and Shikantaza is much more common in the America. It is very powerful practice, because the river finds itself either by looking for the river or by realizing its flowing all along. Matsuoka used to say that we should flow in Shikantaza, and that the whole river of the universe is the same flowing that we are! That is also Satori.

Dear, I so much agree with you that people just sit without purpose in shikantaza, and it is a real shame.

By the way, he also said that long sitting is the river, and short sitting is the river. So, sitting is not a matter of long or short. However, sometimes we need to sit very long and hard to understand this deep down.

Did you ever meet him in Japan, or was he before your time?

Matsuoka is popular family name in Japan, so I cannot say if I know him or not. The similes are beautiful. The common reality down to the ground is quite different in my opinion. I never met even one soto person in the West who could show how easily gained satori. Anyway it would also mean that American soto folk is entirely enlightened, and simply solved the problem of life and death. Is that so? Could anyone die at ease, and show same power of samadhi like old masters of the past?
BTW this kind of sweet and soft approach often misdirects disciples. In fact in soto nobody knows today what is satori.
I remember Uchiyama roshi once talking about kensho, said how people naively state about this experience. He recalled his conversation with Shibayama Zenkei famous rinzai master from Nanzenji, whom he asked directly about kensho and if it is common and possible to attain this state in fast and easy way. Shibayama denied such claims, saying that it may take very long time and long years of devoted practice.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:29 pmSoto has nothing special or different to offer, than any other zen school - it is satori, daigo and liberation. For this one has to work hard.
If practice is not realisation, but rather practice brings about realisation, then it is really nothing different. But then, why not just follow the established teachings of the Mahayana as taught in the sutras and shastras? That is a fairly well defined gradual path with identifiable goals and stages.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Lillian
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Lillian »

Matylda wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:39 am
Matsuoka is popular family name in Japan, so I cannot say if I know him or not. The similes are beautiful. The common reality down to the ground is quite different in my opinion. I never met even one soto person in the West who could show how easily gained satori. Anyway it would also mean that American soto folk is entirely enlightened, and simply solved the problem of life and death. Is that so? Could anyone die at ease, and show same power of samadhi like old masters of the past?
BTW this kind of sweet and soft approach often misdirects disciples. In fact in soto nobody knows today what is satori.
I remember Uchiyama roshi once talking about kensho, said how people naively state about this experience. He recalled his conversation with Shibayama Zenkei famous rinzai master from Nanzenji, whom he asked directly about kensho and if it is common and possible to attain this state in fast and easy way. Shibayama denied such claims, saying that it may take very long time and long years of devoted practice.
Oh, darling, I will tell you this. I have witnessed some of my closest and dearest friends in the Dharma in their struggles with ALS and cancer which eventually killed them. They did jump through death and no death. There is also this wonderful teacher from San Francisco who was an inspiration to many of us a few years ago, Myogen Steve Stuckey. Do you know him? So, yes, I know many who have put life and death away. Stuckey Roshi wrote this death poem.

“This human body truly is the entire cosmos
Each breath of mine, is equally one of yours, my darling
This tender abiding in “my” life
Is the fierce glowing fire of inner earth
Linking with all pre-phenomena
Flashing to the distant horizon
From “right here now” to “just this”
Now the horizon itself
Drops away—
Bodhi!
Svaha.”

Steve was a just sitter, as far as I know. I can give you many examples.

We like to say that you cannot gain what one already is right down to your toes! Yes, we are already Dogen, and all the Ancestors and the Buddha too. Some of us find this fact by becoming very very still, and realizing our Dogen that is always so. Steve might say, if Dogen wants to realize his Dogen nature, where does Dogen find Dogen?

Here is a beautiful talk by Steve that really captures his wisdom, Nirvana-Samsara: What’s the Difference? I recommend it to everyone. He talks about sitting as what is.

https://www.ancientdragon.org/speaker/steve-stucky/

It is just a different approach, and nobody is wrong about this, sweetie.

By the way, you said above, " In Gakudo yojin shu he openly wrote about it, what is the kye point of zen practice.. there is nothing about dropping of mind etc anyway." What do you mean, may I ask?

Lillian
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