Soto zen and problem of satori

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:42 pmHave you ever tried to hold onto a thought? I think you will find it slips right through your fingers.
Isn't it truly unattainable (mushotoku 無所得) then?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Thoughts are the issue? Then before thoughts arise, what arises and how does it behave? There are 5 aggregates!
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

That’s the juiciest and marrow of direct knowing, according to what I was told. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

Personally, I go with experience over scripture. It didn't really help me. I know a lot of disaffected former Soto students who simply gave up on the practice. Finally, many Soto teachers openly seek guidance from other teachers, especially Tibetan ones. Not sure why if all we need is zazen.
Matt J wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:54 pmI don't think it is possible, unless one is of the highest capacity.
Apparently Dogen believed zazen to be applicable to everyone.
[/quote]
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:42 pmHave you ever tried to hold onto a thought? I think you will find it slips right through your fingers.
Isn't it truly unattainable (mushotoku 無所得) then?
Hence the meaning of letting go of letting go. Not proliferation at all. I'll see your zenmaster and raise you a mahāsiddha:

Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed without mental contrivances.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

Dombhi Heruka

Image

Other robes and bone ornaments, do you really see any difference between this and Dogen?
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by narhwal90 »

No pictures in Shobogenzo?
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

I like^.

Consciousness can be clean eventually with that practice.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

A full dragon will also have its tail not just the head. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

But indeed relaxing is the way to go. In fact probably the best way. A big leap can happen. But not everyone can do that, even relaxing is hard for me. But excellent instruction indeed.because when relaxing in the state, there is less delusional grasping or unwanted subtle activities.
Last edited by LastLegend on Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s eye blinking.
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by jimmi »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:16 pm
Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed without mental contrivances.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

Dombhi Heruka
“Separate yourself from disturbance and face whatever appears before you.”
–Hongzhi Zhenjue
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Also relaxing allow energy to flow good and less illness.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

There is no individual that could become enlightened; no one that needs to attain or realize anything. The drama of striving to achieve enlightenment through various practices is limited to the play of appearances. What practice is needed to simply be?
Nathan Gill

:rolling:
jimmi wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:16 pm
Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed without mental contrivances.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

Dombhi Heruka
“Separate yourself from disturbance and face whatever appears before you.”
–Hongzhi Zhenjue
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:41 pm
There is no individual that could become enlightened; no one that needs to attain or realize anything. The drama of striving to achieve enlightenment through various practices is limited to the play of appearances. What practice is needed to simply be?
Nathan Gill
Yes, this is called the enlightenment of fish.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:16 pmJust like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed without mental contrivances.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

Dombhi Heruka
The bird leaving no tracks is a good old metaphor for coursing in emptiness (Thag 1.92; Dhp 7.92-93), and at least the bird and the fish come up in the Zazenshin, where a poem of Hongzhi Zhengjue is quoted, commented upon, and then replied to in verse by Dogen. Here are the last two stanzas from each:

Hongzhi (SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 124; T2582_.82.0119c18-21):
'There has been no discriminating thought:
The sensing, without any duality, is singular.
There has been not the slightest dawning:
The illumination, without any grasping, is complete.
The water is clean right to the bottom,
Fishes are swimming, slowly, slowly.
The sky is wide beyond limit,
And birds are flying, far, far away.'


Dogen (p127-128; T2582_.82.0120c25-28):
'There has been no tainting of the immediacy:
That immediacy is without reliance yet it gets free.
There has been no rightness or divergence in the experience*:
That state of experience is without design yet it makes effort.
The water is clean, right down to the ground,
Fishes are swimming like fishes.
The sky is wide, clear through to the heavens,
And birds are flying like birds.'


*shou 證: realisation, verification
Other robes and bone ornaments, do you really see any difference between this and Dogen?
I'd say all three poems convey the same intention but with different emphasis. Dombipa gives awareness-emptiness, Hongzhi appearance-emptiness (or li shi 理事), and Dogen dependence-emptiness (or ti yong 體用).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

No way!

Thoughts are what left over they don’t discriminate.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
kusulu
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:39 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:14 pm
kusulu wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:05 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:53 am Thank you.

Can you answer my question now?
Yes. Beyond the calmest, quietest, most one-pointed concentration is, beyond senses, beyond mind, dropping off of body and mind, nothing other than the staring into Sunyata. Not seen with the senses of the mind, but awake, aware. Seeing Things As they Truly Are, empty, but an emptiness that is interdependent with all skandhas. It isn't a Void in as much as it's also Pure Light. These words are like trying to draw details with giant crayons as big as one's hand. Just a few scribblings. My life will most likely be too short to fill out the design of what I'm getting at. And my own meditation would suffer if i attend to too much of this. When Chögyam Trungpa said life is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute I at first thought it made no sense at all. Now I know. My reply to Sudden versus Gradual is: all this really is only one instant.
How is “that” know empty empty in itself?
Shunyata isn't emptiness in the sense of an absolute emptiness. It isn't calm, as in an absolute calm. Anicca makes sure of that, its all impermanent, there are no absolutes. Everything is always in flux and changable. Tranquility is best practiced as an equilibrium. Think of a plum line or a compass. The Middle Way is the balance of all these things. In the center of the shit storm is a calm place. There, you can even thread a needle.
LastLegend - this convo has put me thru a lot of changes, I find it not so easy to practice, even harder to discuss. I'm not a scholar, just a meditator. There's a lot of things I still need to learn.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

kusulu wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:11 am
LastLegend wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:14 pm
kusulu wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:05 am
Yes. Beyond the calmest, quietest, most one-pointed concentration is, beyond senses, beyond mind, dropping off of body and mind, nothing other than the staring into Sunyata. Not seen with the senses of the mind, but awake, aware. Seeing Things As they Truly Are, empty, but an emptiness that is interdependent with all skandhas. It isn't a Void in as much as it's also Pure Light. These words are like trying to draw details with giant crayons as big as one's hand. Just a few scribblings. My life will most likely be too short to fill out the design of what I'm getting at. And my own meditation would suffer if i attend to too much of this. When Chögyam Trungpa said life is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute I at first thought it made no sense at all. Now I know. My reply to Sudden versus Gradual is: all this really is only one instant.
How is “that” know empty empty in itself?
Shunyata isn't emptiness in the sense of an absolute emptiness. It isn't calm, as in an absolute calm. Anicca makes sure of that, its all impermanent, there are no absolutes. Everything is always in flux and changable. Tranquility is best practiced as an equilibrium. Think of a plum line or a compass. The Middle Way is the balance of all these things. In the center of the shit storm is a calm place. There, you can even thread a needle.
LastLegend - this convo has put me thru a lot of changes, I find it not so easy to practice, even harder to discuss. I'm not a scholar, just a meditator. There's a lot of things I still need to learn.
“What” knows Absolute or not absolute?
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
kusulu
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:39 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

kusulu wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:52 am
jake wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:00 am The word shikantaza is "calm/insight sitting", "stopping/seeing", the two always go together. There is ample evidence that's the proper etomology from the Chinese. "Just Sitting" is a similar sounding word (but different characters) hence it's been picked up by Dogen and others. Go back and look at all the old Patriarchs and you'll always see calm/insight. And it couldn't be anything other than anyway.
As already stated earlier this is not what the kanji mean in shikantaza. So you need more support for this claim.
Ugh.. Ive gone down this road before but I'm not a scholar.. I'll have to reconstruct the entire research as I don't keep notes.. keep posted, I'll get back to you on this
Okay, currently the Wikipedia entry on "shikantaza" section on "etomology" has been edited basically that "zhiguan" sitting meditation, in Mandarin, as per Zhiyi, has nothing wahtsoever yo do with the "zhiguan" (jp. 'shikan') meditation of Dogen or Rujing, his teacher. I'm not going to argue the point, but it sure looks like the "Pie Are Round" defense to me. Steve Hagen's assertion that the insertion of the Japanese homophone term meaning "just sitting" was edited out in 2015 because it was ruled an "error", no explanation given; as i logged into Wikipedia and checked the history of the entry. I don't know Mandarin or Japanese so I'm not one to pursue this further. It's a popular assumption that Dogen somehow changed the practice from the Caodong School's practice of Silent Illumination (based on silence&stillness (samadhi) & Illumination&Wisdom (Prajna) to that of the Soto Zen concpt of Shikantaza. No clue as to what text is quoted to defend that point other than "we say so"
:reading:
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

While I get the dispute over the kanji. is there any real dispute that functionally Shikantaza is the union of shamatha and vipaysana?

It really seems like a semantic argument, in relation to the main subject of the thread.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
kusulu
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:39 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:57 pm While I get the dispute over the kanji. is there any real dispute that functionally Shikantaza is the union of shamatha and vipaysana?

It really seems like a semantic argument, in relation to the main subject of the thread.
Oh, there is plenty of debate on that topic. You used the word "functionally" which is important i think. The argument runs like, shikantaza is objectless, not focus (and a few other things, pointing to it's superiority). "No need to watch thoughts or watch the breath" - It's as though one can just walk into a Zendo the first time and go straight to Equamimity of Mind. Ain't gonna happen. And I think that's why in Soto there are so many endless sermons on what exactly the practice is, and why so many people don't get it. It ties into the theme of the OP because Dogen's position is that just sitting itself is = equals = Satori = Enlightenment = Nirvana = Buddha-nature, --- whether you know it or not, (but you ought to know it) - in other words, satori is not useful to teach, because you already have it. Anyway that's what i get out of reading Dogen and Soto teachers. And invariably what arises are statements to the effect, that a wandering, agitated mind ends up being justified as equally shikantaza as anything else. So there's clearly a misunderstanding in that. Zen teachers tend to repeat whats been said before, and I have learned to look for greater clarity and discernment.
Post Reply

Return to “Soto”