Soto zen and problem of satori

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Virgo wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:26 pm [Actually, Dogen frequently contradicts himself. You know what is said about consistency and great men.
I always aim for the good kind of consistency.

Virgo
Sure, not too runny, not to firm, like a good mayonnaise.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:02 pm
Virgo wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:26 pm [Actually, Dogen frequently contradicts himself. You know what is said about consistency and great men.
I always aim for the good kind of consistency.

Virgo
Sure, not too runny, not to firm, like a good mayonnaise.
Fore sure.

Virgo
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Hmmm for what lol 😂? Not too firm too soft?
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:24 pm Hmmm for what lol 😂? Not too firm too soft?
One wants it to be spreadable.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:42 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:24 pm Hmmm for what lol 😂? Not too firm too soft?
One wants it to be spreadable.
Sure I like for someone lousy like myself. But what purpose?
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:42 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:24 pm Hmmm for what lol 😂? Not too firm too soft?
One wants it to be spreadable.
Sure I like for someone lousy like myself. But what purpose?
Grasshopper, you should have learned by now to free yourself of purposes...
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Virgo »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:43 pm But what purpose?
For eating mayonnaise.

Virgo
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

:lol:
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Not bad but I don’t believe you.
It’s eye blinking.
haha
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by haha »

What does Dogen mean by hishiryo? It is subject of exploration.
In recent years, however, stupid unreliable people have said, “In the effort of zazen, to attain peace of mind is everything. Just this is the state of tranquility.” This opinion is beneath even scholars of the Small Vehicle. It is inferior even to the vehicles of humans and gods. How can we call such people students of the Buddha-Dharma?
in the same chapter,
Describing zazen, he says, “When we are learning sitting dhyāna, that dhyāna is beyond sitting and lying down.” What he is saying now is that zazen is zazen, not sitting or lying down. After we have received the one-to-one transmission of [the teaching] that [zazen] is beyond sitting and lying down, unlimited instances of sitting and lying down are ourself. Why should we seek life-blood in the familiar or unfamiliar? Why should we discuss delusion and realization? Who wishes to pursue an intellectual conclusion?
again,
This being so, even since ancient times, few people have known that zazen is zazen. On the mountains of the great kingdom of Song today, leaders of top-ranking temples who do not know zazen and who do not learn of it are many; there are some who know [zazen] clearly, but they are few. In many temples, of course, times for zazen are laid down, and everyone from the abbot to the monks regards sitting in zazen as the main task. When recruiting students, too, they urge them to sit in zazen. Even so, those abbots who know [zazen] are rare.
[Chapter Twenty-seven] Zazenshin A Needle for Zazen SHŌBŌGENZŌ THE TRUE DHARMA-EYE TREASURY Volume II BDK
:anjali:
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Virgo »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:02 pm Not bad but I don’t believe you.
You want the mayonnaise to have consistency so it spreads well on your food. Therefore it shouldn't be too runny nor too firm. This is an analogy for consistency. Not being too firm refers to being adaptable and open to change, but not being too runny refers to sticking to your principles and not changing like the weather. Consistency is like mayonnaise.

Virgo
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by jimmi »

Astus wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:15 pmYou quote below is a recognition that the Buddha continued to practice shamatha, which is true.
If zazen meant only samatha, then why would it ever turn into insight?
It doesn’t mean only shamatha. It doesn’t turn into insight.

(Zazen) Shikantaza arises out of insight. Without insight Shikantaza would not much more than “have a break for a while and drift away” meditation. Having insight as its basis there is no requirement in Shikantaza to aspire to further insight. Courageous, equanimous abiding in immediacy is entirely sufficient.

'Dogen Zenji said we should give up even the aspiration to become Buddha in our zazen. And this is the meaning of just sitting. When we practice in this way, just aiming at and letting go even of the aspiration to be enlightened, then Buddhahood is there. When we are actually doing that letting go, then Buddha nature is truly revealed. When we give up our gaining mind, then our true life force arises and is actualized.'
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Virgo wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:35 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:02 pm Not bad but I don’t believe you.
You want the mayonnaise to have consistency so it spreads well on your food. Therefore it shouldn't be too runny nor too firm. This is an analogy for consistency. Not being too firm refers to being adaptable and open to change, but not being too runny refers to sticking to your principles and not changing like the weather. Consistency is like mayonnaise.

Virgo
Thank you for kindness. I have no clue what that means in relation to mediation?
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

I am sorry for being a jerk in this forum.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

jimmi wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:40 pm
Astus wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:15 pmYou quote below is a recognition that the Buddha continued to practice shamatha, which is true.
If zazen meant only samatha, then why would it ever turn into insight?
It doesn’t mean only shamatha. It doesn’t turn into insight.

(Zazen) Shikantaza arises out of insight. Without insight Shikantaza would not much more than “have a break for a while and drift away” meditation. Having insight as its basis there is no requirement in Shikantaza to aspire to further insight. Courageous, equanimous abiding in immediacy is entirely sufficient.

'Dogen Zenji said we should give up even the aspiration to become Buddha in our zazen. And this is the meaning of just sitting. When we practice in this way, just aiming at and letting go even of the aspiration to be enlightened, then Buddhahood is there. When we are actually doing that letting go, then Buddha nature is truly revealed. When we give up our gaining mind, then our true life force arises and is actualized.'
What insight itself?
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

jimmi wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:40 pm
(Zazen) Shikantaza arises out of insight. Without insight Shikantaza would not much more than “have a break for a while and drift away” meditation. Having insight as its basis there is no requirement in Shikantaza to aspire to further insight. Courageous, equanimous abiding in immediacy is entirely sufficient.
Right, the point of all this is that we then have a situation where a person does not have insight. This means, according the definition you are providing, they are not doing shikantaza. This means there are two levels: shikantaza and not shikantaza. This means the path is gradated, despite whatever rhetoric one brings to bear.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Virgo »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:47 pm
Thank you for kindness. I have no clue what that means in relation to mediation?
We were talking about Dogen's inconsistency. You are not a jerk.

Virgo
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by jimmi »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:19 pm Right, the point of all this is that we then have a situation where a person does not have insight. This means, according the definition you are providing, they are not doing shikantaza. This means there are two levels: shikantaza and not shikantaza. This means the path is gradated, despite whatever rhetoric one brings to bear.
There isn’t a person who doesn’t have or hasn’t had insight. What anyone choses to do with the insight that they become aware of is up to them. Shikantaza and not shikantaza is not two levels but two different situations altogether. If one is somehow instructed in Shikantaza yet hasn’t had the personal insight the motivates and energizes their zazen then it is not actually shikantaza. Which is not to say that in “not shikantaza” one cannot come to shikantaza, just that there is no inherent connection there. So no gradated path. No path at all. Immediacy.
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by jimmi »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:49 pm What insight itself?
The insight that abiding in immediacy is entirely sufficient.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

How sufficient?

One hand we have issue with “just sitting” along with “pointing to the heart of man” not being fleshed out sufficiently. The problem of satori is this. From East to West.
It’s eye blinking.
Post Reply

Return to “Soto”