Soto zen and problem of satori

Malcolm
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

jimmi wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:19 pm Right, the point of all this is that we then have a situation where a person does not have insight. This means, according the definition you are providing, they are not doing shikantaza. This means there are two levels: shikantaza and not shikantaza. This means the path is gradated, despite whatever rhetoric one brings to bear.
There isn’t a person who doesn’t have or hasn’t had insight.
So people have insight, but they don't know they have insight?

What anyone choses to do with the insight that they become aware of is up to them. Shikantaza and not shikantaza is not two levels but two different situations altogether. If one is somehow instructed in Shikantaza yet hasn’t had the personal insight the motivates and energizes their zazen then it is not actually shikantaza. Which is not to say that in “not shikantaza” one cannot come to shikantaza, just that there is no inherent connection there. So no gradated path. No path at all. Immediacy.
Rhetoric, not reality.
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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I think the authentic Zen should be the heart of man first...then in that state transcend to what sixth Patriarch said (I mentioned already). If this this lost, it’s not authentic Zen it would be practicing something that leads to somewhere.
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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The word shikantaza is "calm/insight sitting", "stopping/seeing", the two always go together. There is ample evidence that's the proper etomology from the Chinese. "Just Sitting" is a similar sounding word (but different characters) hence it's been picked up by Dogen and others. Go back and look at all the old Patriarchs and you'll always see calm/insight. And it couldn't be anything other than anyway.
Last edited by kusulu on Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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No!?

When is calm insight? Not acceptable! :lol:
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:07 am No!?

When is calm insight? Not acceptable! :lol:
When a bird wants to fly it uses both wings. "Wings of Awakening"

With out calm, there can only be agitation and striving, and no insight. Without insight, calm is merely "chilling out" and does not Liberate. You have to reflect on the Dharma. etc.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:17 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:07 am No!?

When is calm insight? Not acceptable! :lol:
When a bird wants to fly it uses both wings. "Wings of Awakening"

With out calm, there can only be agitation and striving, and no insight. Without insight, calm is merely "chilling out" and does not Liberate. You have to reflect on the Dharma. etc.
Sure but within calm that insight is what?
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:23 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:17 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:07 am No!?

When is calm insight? Not acceptable! :lol:
When a bird wants to fly it uses both wings. "Wings of Awakening"

With out calm, there can only be agitation and striving, and no insight. Without insight, calm is merely "chilling out" and does not Liberate. You have to reflect on the Dharma. etc.
Sure but within calm that insight is what?
i think it's more like ceasing to believe in one's own bullshit, rather than just going blank
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:50 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:23 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:17 am
When a bird wants to fly it uses both wings. "Wings of Awakening"

With out calm, there can only be agitation and striving, and no insight. Without insight, calm is merely "chilling out" and does not Liberate. You have to reflect on the Dharma. etc.
Sure but within calm that insight is what?
i think it's more like ceasing to believe in one's own bullshit, rather than just going blank
I think insight is in-sight. What is in that in-sight? Here lies my own problem.
It’s eye blinking.
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:50 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:23 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:17 am
When a bird wants to fly it uses both wings. "Wings of Awakening"

With out calm, there can only be agitation and striving, and no insight. Without insight, calm is merely "chilling out" and does not Liberate. You have to reflect on the Dharma. etc.
Sure but within calm that insight is what?
i think it's more like ceasing to believe in one's own bullshit, rather than just going blank
If when you draw water from the well, and find it is murky, when it settles out it becomes clear. This is how things become clear. Letting the agitation settle out. It doesn't say what might be seen more clearly, maybe <insert zen poetic references here> ?
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:01 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:50 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:23 am

Sure but within calm that insight is what?
i think it's more like ceasing to believe in one's own bullshit, rather than just going blank
If when you draw water from the well, and find it is murky, when it settles out it becomes clear. This is how things become clear. Letting the agitation settle out. It doesn't say what might be seen more clearly, maybe <insert zen poetic references here> ?
I don’t think so! I think we need to know ‘what’ that knows water is clear!?
It’s eye blinking.
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:10 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:01 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:50 am
i think it's more like ceasing to believe in one's own bullshit, rather than just going blank
If when you draw water from the well, and find it is murky, when it settles out it becomes clear. This is how things become clear. Letting the agitation settle out. It doesn't say what might be seen more clearly, maybe <insert zen poetic references here> ?
I don’t think so! I think we need to know ‘what’ that knows water is clear!?
If we knew that, we'd know everything. I could have bought GameStop stonks at $ 4 per share
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:13 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:10 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:01 am
If when you draw water from the well, and find it is murky, when it settles out it becomes clear. This is how things become clear. Letting the agitation settle out. It doesn't say what might be seen more clearly, maybe <insert zen poetic references here> ?
I don’t think so! I think we need to know ‘what’ that knows water is clear!?
If we knew that, we'd know everything. I could have bought GameStop stonks at $ 4 per share
We have to! Because it’s what functions constantly. You have to aspire! There is no other choice!!
It’s eye blinking.
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:18 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:13 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:10 am

I don’t think so! I think we need to know ‘what’ that knows water is clear!?
If we knew that, we'd know everything. I could have bought GameStop stonks at $ 4 per share
We have to! Because it’s what functions constantly. You have to aspire! There is no other choice!!
When you put it like that? It's called Awakening, just so, because we are all 'as though we are asleep' while awake. All Dharmas are Empty, as is said, but it's not like emptiness, as much as it's like fullness. Everything is Sentient, everything is Buddha-Nature, Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form, but never is there a fixed Eternal, Everlasting Self, it's much MORE than just that. It's Primordial, Primeval, the Source which knows neither beginning nor end. The Dharma verifies itself, because it opens the eye by which it sees.

When Dogen says, everything Buddha-Nature, just sit? He is setting you up. How can you "just sit" when there is a Dragon Singing in a Dead Tree?
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:47 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:18 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:13 am
If we knew that, we'd know everything. I could have bought GameStop stonks at $ 4 per share
We have to! Because it’s what functions constantly. You have to aspire! There is no other choice!!
When you put it like that? It's called Awakening, just so, because we are all 'as though we are asleep' while awake. All Dharmas are Empty, as is said, but it's not like emptiness, as much as it's like fullness. Everything is Sentient, everything is Buddha-Nature, Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form, but never is there a fixed Eternal, Everlasting Self, it's much MORE than just that. It's Primordial, Primeval, the Source which knows neither beginning nor end. The Dharma verifies itself, because it opens the eye by which it sees.

When Dogen says, everything Buddha-Nature, just sit? He is setting you up. How can you "just sit" when there is a Dragon Singing in a Dead Tree?
I am just demanding something that fits my view! So then I’d like to ask what is emptiness in a direct sense?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:09 am
kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:47 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:18 am

We have to! Because it’s what functions constantly. You have to aspire! There is no other choice!!
When you put it like that? It's called Awakening, just so, because we are all 'as though we are asleep' while awake. All Dharmas are Empty, as is said, but it's not like emptiness, as much as it's like fullness. Everything is Sentient, everything is Buddha-Nature, Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form, but never is there a fixed Eternal, Everlasting Self, it's much MORE than just that. It's Primordial, Primeval, the Source which knows neither beginning nor end. The Dharma verifies itself, because it opens the eye by which it sees.

When Dogen says, everything Buddha-Nature, just sit? He is setting you up. How can you "just sit" when there is a Dragon Singing in a Dead Tree?
I am just demanding something that fits my view! So then I’d like to ask what is emptiness in a direct sense?
No where to go, nothing to do, nothing to prove, not selfish, not self-centered, not trying to get a certain outcome. When you try to bend the universe to your limited will, with your limited mind, with your limited strength, you are only messing things up. Don't harbor evil thoughts, things might come true in ways you'll regret.

"Don’t recall. Let go of the past.
Don’t imagine. Let go of the future.
Don’t think. Let go of how you think this needs to go down.
Don’t examine. Don't over-analyze.
Don’t control. Let it happen.
Rest. Let it go. "
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

Thank you.

Can you answer my question now?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

kusulu wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:00 am The word shikantaza is "calm/insight sitting", "stopping/seeing", the two always go together. There is ample evidence that's the proper etomology from the Chinese. "Just Sitting" is a similar sounding word (but different characters) hence it's been picked up by Dogen and others. Go back and look at all the old Patriarchs and you'll always see calm/insight. And it couldn't be anything other than anyway.
As already stated earlier this is not what the kanji mean in shikantaza. So you need more support for this claim.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:01 pmSure, but at this point, it is not really insight since there is nothing left for a buddha to do.
Just as there is nothing left to be done in zazen, or as it is sometimes put: nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得 - anupalabdha).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:32 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:01 pmSure, but at this point, it is not really insight since there is nothing left for a buddha to do.
Just as there is nothing left to be done in zazen, or as it is sometimes put: nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得 - anupalabdha).
And yet Dogen talks about gaining thorough understanding, what maddening inconsistencies.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:12 pmAnd yet Dogen talks about gaining thorough understanding, what maddening inconsistencies.
The thorough understanding of what?

'What is sudden awakening (tongo 頓悟)? Answer: Sudden is to suddenly remove false thoughts (muunen 妄念). Awakening is to awaken to nothing to gain (mushotoku 無所得).'
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment; X63n1223p18a10)

'Additionally, if a person retaining the concept of there being anything to be gained (ushotoku 有所得) generates the bodhi resolve and then proceeds to cultivate kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity, giving, moral virtue, patience, vigor, dhyāna absorption, and wisdom, doing so for an incalculable number of asaṃkhyeyas of kalpas, one should realize that, on account of retaining the concept of something to be gained, such a person will not succeed in leaving behind birth and death and will not succeed in progressing towards bodhi.'
(Vasubandhu's Treatise on the Bodhisattva Vow, ch 10; T32n1659p515c12-15)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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