Soto zen and problem of satori

[Pascal2]

Maybe yes.. But I was merely replying to a question of yours

No, not at all. If you related to any question it was not mine.
We talked about rinzai roshis concerning koan training and kensho.
You claimed that you talked to Japanese rinzai zen roshis.
So I only asked what did they tell you about the discussed matter. No answer as far.

You wrote

You do not have to be skeptical, I think if you have contact with any Japanese rinzai roshi he will answer, for sure.

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

[HePo]

I do not want to seem to skeptical here, but I do not believe that all Rinzai Roshi would be able to reply to this question. I suspect infact that not even many of them would be able to do that

Yes of course Shinagawa
You do not have to be skeptical, I think if you have contact with any Japanese rinzai roshi he will answer, for sure.

I have discussed with Japanese rinzai roshis and I do not believe you are right.
Just my opinion, though..

I think, Matylda is asking what these rinzai roshis - "I have discussed with Japanese rinzai roshis" - told you.
You did not answer that question.

your responses sofar

I said I do not believe you are right in saying that any Japanee Rinzai Roshi will answer.
Have you spoken with all of them.

Many of them may be even Roshi only by name.

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

So, what did these Rinzai roshis tell you?

[Matylda]

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

I guess that now I understand, namely there is no point to ask any Japanese rinzai roshi, since generally Japnese rinzai teachers or shike are not qualified to answer such question or questions - did I understood correctly your two cents?

[Pascal2]

I guess that now I understand, namely there is no point to ask any Japanese rinzai roshi, since generally Japnese rinzai teachers or shike are not qualified to answer such question or questions - did I understood correctly your two cents?

No.
I was merely pointing out that you do not speak on behalf of the totality of Japanese Rinzai Roshis.

[Matylda]

I guess that now I understand, namely there is no point to ask any Japanese rinzai roshi, since generally Japnese rinzai teachers or shike are not qualified to answer such question or questions - did I understood correctly your two cents?

No.
I was merely pointing out that you do not speak on behalf of the totality of Japanese Rinzai Roshis.

Well I do not think that I ever pretended. I just suggested that you may ask any rinzai roshi about koan training without kensho. So I do not think that I have ever pretended to speak on behalf of Japanese rinzai roshis

[Pascal2]

Well I do not think that I ever pretended. I just suggested that you may ask any rinzai roshi about koan training without kensho. So I do not think that I have ever pretended to speak on behalf of Japanese rinzai roshis

This is what you wrote

Yes of course Shinagawa
You do not have to be skeptical, I think if you have contact with any Japanese rinzai roshi he will answer, for sure.

I believe this implies that you know that any Japanese Rinzai Roshi knows the answer, for sure.
Looks like a bold statement, are you sure that there are not any Japanese Rinzai Roshi in Japan who are too lazy to know the answer?
Not even one in all Japan?
As for my personal experience I would not make such bold statements. But again, just my take.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

You seem to have made the same sort of generalized statements in the opposite direction, unless of course you personally know the majority of Rinzai Roshis.

[Pascal2]

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

You seem to have made the same sort of generalized statements in the opposite direction, unless of course you personally know the majority of Rinzai Roshis.

Not to be too pedantic again, but I simply said that I know Rinzai Buddhists who are not serious.

I never claimed to know all of them.
Nor I have talked about the "majority" of them.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Since I know that many Rinzai Buddhists do not practice very seriously nowadays I doubt that all Roshis would have the needed expertise to answer that question.
However, just my two cents.

You seem to have made the same sort of generalized statements in the opposite direction, unless of course you personally know the majority of Rinzai Roshis.

Not to be too pedantic again, but I simply said that I know Rinzai Buddhists who are not serious.

I never claimed to know all of them.
Nor I have talked about the "majority" of them.

Sigh..I was trying to make a point, probably not in the best way. Let me make it differently;

Please keep on topic instead of endlessly engaging in meta discussion

[Matylda]

I believe this implies that you know that any Japanese Rinzai Roshi knows the answer, for sure.
Looks like a bold statement, are you sure that there are not any Japanese Rinzai Roshi in Japan who are too lazy to know the answer?
Not even one in all Japan?
As for my personal experience I would not make such bold statements. But again, just my take.

Why bold? What is bold about statement - go and ask a teacher? I do not understand...
I just believe that any Japanese rinzai roshi is qualified enough to answer simpe question about koan training without kensho. They are just trained properly to deal with this problem. One may accept their opinion or not, but again it is completely another matter.

[Pascal2]

I believe this implies that you know that any Japanese Rinzai Roshi knows the answer, for sure.
Looks like a bold statement, are you sure that there are not any Japanese Rinzai Roshi in Japan who are too lazy to know the answer?
Not even one in all Japan?
As for my personal experience I would not make such bold statements. But again, just my take.

Why bold? What is bold about statement - go and ask a teacher? I do not understand...
I just believe that any Japanese rinzai roshi is qualified enough to answer simpe question about koan training without kensho. They are just trained properly to deal with this problem. One may accept their opinion or not, but again it is completely another matter.

This is not what you said above and I have little interest to go ahead in this spurious discussion after having received a warning.
I think we should go back and talk about the topics at hand

[Matylda]

This is not what you said above and I have little interest to go ahead in this spurious discussion after having received a warning.
I think we should go back and talk about the topics at hand

ok

[jimmi]

I think we should go back and talk about the topics at hand

ok

Just to clarify then: is the problem of satori an “elephant in the living room” kind of problem for Soto Zen, is it more of a problem for the Soto clan than it is for the Rinzai clan and, if so, is this degree of problematic related in some way to the specifics of Shikantaza and koan practice? Or, is it a different kind of problem that you are suggesting, Matylda?

I do feel (gut feeling mostly based on what I read) that both Soto and Rinzai schools tend to institutionalize and fetishize satori/kensho. To say that kensho/satori is indispensable to authentic zen practice is not a position I, from my own Shikantaza point of view, would agree with.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I think we should go back and talk about the topics at hand

ok

Just to clarify then: is the problem of satori an “elephant in the living room” kind of problem for Soto Zen, is it more of a problem for the Soto clan than it is for the Rinzai clan and, if so, is this degree of problematic related in some way to the specifics of Shikantaza and koan practice? Or, is it a different kind of problem that you are suggesting, Matylda?

I do feel (gut feeling mostly based on what I read) that both Soto and Rinzai schools tend to institutionalize and fetishize satori/kensho. To say that kensho/satori is indispensable to authentic zen practice is not a position I, from my own Shikantaza point of view, would agree with.

I don't' have as much experience in Zen as in Tibetan traditions, but in a sense the answer does not seem very different to me. In a path that relies on direct realization, the notion of kensho or satori or something like them seems indispensable.

After all Zen in any form is, by my understanding not a gradual path relying on progressive intellectual understanding, if Zazen gets approached as if it is...then the approach does not fit the method at all. I will say that from my exposure to Western Zen, I think there might be something to the criticism. It's just that constant emphasis of Zazen with no real instructions ends up supplanting the gradual path, if the teacher does not know a method to verify the students recognition and to help them stabilize it.

[narhwal90]

I'd expect the question of how to handle or view satori/kensho depends a lot on the teacher. Off the top of my head I don't think anyone would claim satori is irrelevant, but considerable variation might be seen on its importance eg is it a goal or not, and to what extent such experiences are to be studied.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I'd expect the question of how to handle or view satori/kensho depends a lot on the teacher. Off the top of my head I don't think anyone would claim satori is irrelevant, but considerable variation might be seen on its importance eg is it a goal or not, and to what extent such experiences are to be studied.

It seems to me that in a path based on direct experience rather than progressive stages, a student's initial realization or flash of the Nature of Mind, the Original Face..or whatever term you prefer it is sort of the essential centerpiece. It takes the goal as the path, to use Tibetan terminology.

If a teacher is not capable or can't verify and help students stabilize that recognition, it isn't a path based on direct experience anymore. Of course there is always a worry that students will focus on and fetishize the experience itself, or think it makes them special or unique. The Zen tradition has actual writings and I am sure instruction on how to handle this. I have read a few Zen writings that cover some of this ground.

I suspect the criticism is people teaching Zazen and simply telling students to "keep sitting" rather than verifying whether or not they had such an experience, and helping them stabilize and clarify it. Like I said, this is what defines whether a teaching as working outward from this direct experience, or taking a graduated path of working towards such an experience in a linear way.

[Matylda]

Just to clarify then: is the problem of satori an “elephant in the living room” kind of problem for Soto Zen, is it more of a problem for the Soto clan than it is for the Rinzai clan and, if so, is this degree of problematic related in some way to the specifics of Shikantaza and koan practice? Or, is it a different kind of problem that you are suggesting, Matylda?

I do feel (gut feeling mostly based on what I read) that both Soto and Rinzai schools tend to institutionalize and fetishize satori/kensho. To say that kensho/satori is indispensable to authentic zen practice is not a position I, from my own Shikantaza point of view, would agree with.

Both rinzai and soto zen have same root. The transmission of zen to China was based on Bodhidharma teachings which central point was kensho. In fact kensho was rather viewed in a different way than today. Today for many kensho means to pass the first koan. Of course it could be so, and in fact it was so, at least in the past, lets say 100 years ago.

The problem itself is not in shikan taza or koan practice. The problem is in complete denial of kensho/satori realization. The fact that one is practicing shikan taza does not mean by itself that kind of denial. In fact wether shikan taza or koan the experience should be exactly the same.

The problem of shikan taza now is in practice without check points. This should be done properly by an experienced teacher in provate during dokusan, in a dokusan room. If you check STANDARD OBSERVATION OF THE SOTO etc. which was published by Shumuchoi in English as well, you will find short instruction about nyushitsu and dokusan. They are slightly different, but anyway who is offering dokusan? Whenever I asked about it, everybody answered that it is not needed. So there is a gap in official soto standards and daily practice. I mean no dokusan in the West since in Japan it is still maintained, but only in a few places.

During dokusan roshi has chance to check in detail students progress or sort out his or her experience in zazen. Through close check up with vital questions is able to receive response which shows wrong or correct understanding. What are the questions? Mostly these are koans. It is not true, actually it is completely false to make claims that koan is not used in soto. Actually during hossen shiki monks have to memorize all answers in a fromal way. But it does not mean that they understand what they are saying. I only point to the fact that even in formal soto ritual, there is place for koan. How did it happen? Again in fact it was from the very begining of soto in Japan. Shuso, the monk in training who is scheduled to take shuso hossen, was originally one with deepest experience in zazen including satori. Only this one was able in public to go through difficult questions and answers. Roshi was a superviser of the event and was one who selected among disciples most able one. It was the case when hossen was held for the first time under Dogen. Then shuso was Ejo, Ejo zenji who had very deep realization.
But later and closer to modern times it became merly a formality, just another event without deep meaning. Spiritual meaning.
lets look at rinzai. They too have almost the same ceremony. It is for those who are going to get osho rank and become abbot of the public temple. Same patterns. The difference is that soto shuso is a young monk who mostly practiced zazen for 3 months, mostly one hour in the morning, and had a ot of work reserved only for shuso, like special offerings etc.
Rinzai shuso mostly spend 3 years in training having 3 to 6 hours daily zazen and about 20 one week long sesshins.

Now lets look at kensho/satori. Yes finally they managed in soto to deny the whole thing after 700 years of soto in Japan. Modern soto does not even resemble what it was before. Zazen? One hour in the morining and mostly one sesshin a year. Before? 4 periods of zazen each about 2 hours. Sometimes more. This schedule was kept for 90-120 days. Today soto is not much concerned with zazen in spite of its decleration.
Sawaki Kodo who is very admired in the West, kept 4 hours in the morning from 2am to 6 am, and about 2 hours in the evening. 6 hours daily. Who is doing such things among soto folk east or west? I know only 4 or 5 today, all in Japan.

Sawaki teachings are often quoted here and there. Fine. But his teachings spring from the teachings of Nishiari Bokusan zenji. And Nishiari never denied satori! it is clear from his teachings. He denied kensho as understood in rinzai, but he just said it was too shallow and nothing in fact compare to genuine realization of satori. In his bio there is famous accident when he became enlightened while practicing koan 29 of Hekiganroku - Tozui end of kalpa. He was confirmed and granted inka. Where will we find such things in soto today? The big misunderstanding concerning zazen/satori and nothing to do, nothing to gain etc. made this tradition something completely strange. And it is the result of last 100 years. Not that it was like this from the begining in Japan.

Look into old stories of Japanese soto masters. Each story tells clearly about their enlightenment. Each includes DAIGo which means big satori. Does not matter what did they practiced shikan or koan. Since it does not matter at all.

[Astus]

The problem itself is not in shikan taza or koan practice. The problem is in complete denial of kensho/satori realization. The fact that one is practicing shikan taza does not mean by itself that kind of denial. In fact wether shikan taza or koan the experience should be exactly the same.

Practising with koans is in order to gain realisation, shikantaza is practice-realisation, so there is a difference. If there were stages to be reached in shikantaza, then realisation were apart from practice.
This is the difference between directly practising no-thought or using huatou to reach no-thought, as Hanshan Deqing wrote:

'If you can thus engage in contemplation, then whenever a thought arises, you should find its source. Never haphazardly allow it to pass you by [without seeing through it]. Do not be deceived by it! If this is how you work, then you will be doing some genuine practice. Do not try to gather up some abstract and intellectual view on it or try to fabricate some cleaver understanding about it. Still, to even speak about practice is really like the last alternative. For example, in the use of weapons, they are really not auspicious objects! But they are used as the last alternative [in battles]. The ancient ones spoke about investigating Chan and bringing forth the huatou. These, too are last alternatives. Even though there are innumerable gong ans, only by using the huatou, “Who is reciting the Buddhaís name?” can you derive power from it easily enough amidst vexing situations. Even though you can easily derive power from it, [this huatou] is merely a [broken] tile for knocking down doors. Eventually you will have to throw it away. Still, you must use it for now.'
(Essentials of Practice and Enlightenment for Beginners)

[Matylda]

The problem itself is not in shikan taza or koan practice. The problem is in complete denial of kensho/satori realization. The fact that one is practicing shikan taza does not mean by itself that kind of denial. In fact wether shikan taza or koan the experience should be exactly the same.

Practising with koans is in order to gain realisation, shikantaza is practice-realisation, so there is a difference. If there were stages to be reached in shikantaza, then realisation were apart from practice.
This is the difference between directly practising no-thought or using huatou to reach no-thought, as Hanshan Deqing wrote:

'If you can thus engage in contemplation, then whenever a thought arises, you should find its source. Never haphazardly allow it to pass you by [without seeing through it]. Do not be deceived by it! If this is how you work, then you will be doing some genuine practice. Do not try to gather up some abstract and intellectual view on it or try to fabricate some cleaver understanding about it. Still, to even speak about practice is really like the last alternative. For example, in the use of weapons, they are really not auspicious objects! But they are used as the last alternative [in battles]. The ancient ones spoke about investigating Chan and bringing forth the huatou. These, too are last alternatives. Even though there are innumerable gong ans, only by using the huatou, “Who is reciting the Buddhaís name?” can you derive power from it easily enough amidst vexing situations. Even though you can easily derive power from it, [this huatou] is merely a [broken] tile for knocking down doors. Eventually you will have to throw it away. Still, you must use it for now.'
(Essentials of Practice and Enlightenment for Beginners)

This master was active in the 17th century when Chinese zen was pretty much different from what was transmitted to Japan in the 13-14th century. I mean his teaching was great as the teaching of any enlightened being. But still koan practice and shikan taza do not involve looking for the source of thoughts. This may sound more like shikan or vipassana, But I might be wrong to attrbute it to vipassana etc. anyway it is not practiced in this way in Japan.
What I said concerrns Japanese zen, not Chinese, Koean or Vietnamese. They have their own features and of course work well. The whole topic which I picked up concerns exclusivly Japanese zen.

[Astus]

The whole topic which I picked up concerns exclusivly Japanese zen.

The main point still stands: Practising with koans is in order to gain realisation, shikantaza is practice-realisation, so there is a difference. If there were stages to be reached in shikantaza, then realisation were apart from practice.