Soto zen and problem of satori

Matylda
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:05 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:02 pm But still there could be a few people in soto who are worth of respect, but it is difficult to find them. Maybe if one is in the very inner circles it is not a problem, sometimes there are hidden in the monastery and they look like very royal followers of the church. But if one observes them carefuly and their behavior, and has chance to ask question, then it could be very amazing discovery. However it is really rare nowdays. Very rare.
Those guys are possibly ancient Buddhas. It’s rare to meet them.
could be so, for sure they are special...
Malcolm
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:49 pm Your expectation is very high for modern degenerative age where world is wretched with bad karma. Satori is not easy in any tradition. There is a rare one in a billion who has reached the Wisdom level of Buddhas. You might have an Arahant and possibly a Bodhisattva here and there.
You are too skeptical.
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

There had been a recent case of yellow :lol: lights from cremation of a monk. There were a few cases of crystallized bones after cremation.
Guess I was wrong?
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by LastLegend »

It’s not uncommon for people to cry when seeing lights and bones.

Back to topic.
It’s eye blinking.
ryunin
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by ryunin »

What was Kodo Sawaki's opinion of satori?
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

Dogen didn't talk about samadhi because there was a type of samadhi fad going on at the time. Probably the same goes for satori, but I'm speculating. For sure Dogen insisted "dropping away of body and mind" is paramount. Soto has its own terminology, but its quite similar to Rinzai and Ch'an when you get past the words.
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

ryunin wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:47 pm What was Kodo Sawaki's opinion of satori?
All of Buddhism is a footnote to zazen.—KODO SAWAKI

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Discovering.pdf

"In Soto, all of zazen is enlightenment itself" - Kusulu
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Astus
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Astus »

ryunin wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:47 pm What was Kodo Sawaki's opinion of satori?
From Homeless Kodo:

'A Zen tenma, or heavenly demon, is an ordinary person practicing to gain satori, to become great.
Buddhadharma is not something for making an ordinary person great.'

(Halfway Zazen chapter)

'Zazen is the way we tune in to the whole universe. Samadhi is practicing each and every thing with the entire universe moment by moment.
Satori is not going to a special place that is difficult to reach, but simply being natural.'

(No Other chapter)

'Satori is like a burglar breaking into an empty house. Although he had difficulty getting in, there’s nothing to steal. He doesn’t need to run. Nobody’s after him. The whole thing is a flop.'
Uchiyama commentary: 'Satori is simply settling down here and now, where things are unsatisfactory.'
(A Burglar Breaks into an Empty House chapter)

From To You:

'You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.'

(To you who do everything you can to get satori)

'No illusion is as hard to cure as satori.
Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.
You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.
Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.'

(To you who is showing off your satori)

'You suffer because you don’t want to accept what has to be accepted.
Quietly accepting what has to be is what’s meant by satori. Great satori means seeing necessity as necessity, for necessity is an integral part of the universe.
You’re worried about death? Don’t worry – you’ll die for sure.'

(To you who are tumbling down the career ladder)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Matt J
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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kusulu
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by kusulu »

Matt J wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:27 pm How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
It isn't as relevant as knowing whether you have or not. But? I would look first of all for someone who isn't trying to run a cult, who doesn't proclaim their truth to be the only truth, someone who is open and natural, and knows how to laugh without being weird.

Whether or not satori is taught in Soto or not isn't really an issue. It happens if you practice. To practice is what the instruction is. Do that and don't get caught up in the conceptualizations about it.
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by narhwal90 »

The term has not been brought up in my Soto group beyond tangential references. The bulk of the study discussion is spent on a variety of sutras and commentaries. Plus a good bit of b.s. ing and general chat. If my guy started talking about satori as a goal, or much beyond discussing it as something to be noted as a sign of practice and subsequently left in the past as one more event then it'd be my last day in the group. What I'm looking for in a roshi is a quick adaptable mind, prioritizing study, able to go between serious and frivolous as need be, and not caught up in personalities or positions.
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Pascal2
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Pascal2 »

Matylda wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:31 pm Modern soto zen was finally shaped after the 2 WW going through deep and strong changes in the 19th century and actually is now significantly different from what it was used to be still in the 19th century.
First thing is that in Japanese soto zen traditionally there were nyushitsu and dokusan. Those are private interviews with roshi – the zen master. Nyushitsu is more formal, while dokusan is much more private. This practice disappeared entirely from soto monasteries. Why? Short answer - Due to the lack of realisation and the necessity of transmitting this important goal to the next generation, then it was followed by extreme and sharp decrease of practiced zazen periods, and finally wrong and one sided understanding of shikan taza was born, which excluded any experience of satori.
Public Soto temples are not any longer places of strong zen practice, but they fulfill their social and religious role very well.
Monasteries on the oher side busy themselves with much labor, cleaning, learning rituals and conducting rituals themselves. Big monasteries have many visitors each day and they offer tour over all buildings an places to show, worth of seeing for any reason, for which they charge money. Be it some famous piece of anything worth showing and paying for being shown. Zazen is only short daily routine added to much busier daily schedule.
What is worth of notice is that untill the 19th century many soto teachers still used koan in training their students. Soto masters used it in some different way than for example Hakuin descendents. As is clear from dokusan between Fugai and Tanzan, let use them as an example, koan was indispensable, as well as dokusan - private interview. Even if one practiced shikan taza one had to be confronted with hard and difficult questions from the teacher in dokusan. Zazen was not time for spacious form of meditaion and relaxtion.
But of course there are proofs, that dokusan was practiced – in Sojiji there are still kept old wooden boards with dokusan calligraphy. Soto manuals for monks have section about dokusan and nyushitsu. But they are not practiced anymore. Only traces are left.
There was since long ago the tendency of falling in doing-nothing zazen in soto monasteries, but once they did away with koan, dokusan and nyushitsu, there was no burning quest anymore. Then, only nice theories concerning shika taza were born out of the situation. There was no one to ask practitioners how they are doing in zazen and nobody to see their insights, samadhi etc.
Interesting post.
I have practiced for years in a Soto temple where koans are used.
Usually, Soto does not use koans but the Master of that temple deemed koans as necessary for satori.
In other temples you just have to sit without meditating on the koan but the master of that temple was used to deride such kind of zazen as "sleeping zazen".

In Rinzai koans are used but I have heard voices that some people who still can not get the first koans are already admitted to the later ones.
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Pascal2
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Pascal2 »

Matt J wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:27 pm How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
My master thinks he can judge
It is called tenken (点検)
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Pascal2
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Pascal2 »

Matylda wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:02 pm But still there could be a few people in soto who are worth of respect, but it is difficult to find them. Maybe if one is in the very inner circles it is not a problem, sometimes there are hidden in the monastery and they look like very royal followers of the church. But if one observes them carefuly and their behavior, and has chance to ask question, then it could be very amazing discovery. However it is really rare nowdays. Very rare.
I am not so sure they are rare.
There are several temples in Japan where they practize Zazen seriously
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Matt J
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

I mostly agree, but it can be relevant if one wants a teacher. A proper teacher should have realized what they teach, otherwise they are merely teaching based on some one else's understanding.

On the other hand, we have no direct access to other minds, and teachers appear in one own's mind. So if a teacher appears ineffective at leading one to one's own realization, the fault could be either in the teacher, the teaching, or the student.
kusulu wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
Matt J wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:27 pm How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
It isn't as relevant as knowing whether you have or not. But? I would look first of all for someone who isn't trying to run a cult, who doesn't proclaim their truth to be the only truth, someone who is open and natural, and knows how to laugh without being weird.

Whether or not satori is taught in Soto or not isn't really an issue. It happens if you practice. To practice is what the instruction is. Do that and don't get caught up in the conceptualizations about it.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Matt J
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

Color me skeptical about self-authorizing claims.
Pascal2 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:00 pm
Matt J wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:27 pm How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
My master thinks he can judge
It is called tenken (点検)
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Pascal2
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Pascal2 »

Matt J wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:14 pm Color me skeptical about self-authorizing claims.
Pascal2 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:00 pm
Matt J wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:27 pm How do you know if some one else obtained satori or not?
My master thinks he can judge
It is called tenken (点検)
Then what criteria do you put forward for checking out?
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Matt J
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matt J »

For myself, I check what a teacher is saying against the scriptures and commentaries of the tradition, and my own personal experience. If what a teacher says is consistent with tradition, and I can verify it, then I will learn from that teacher. If over time my suffering reduces and my compassion increases, I presume I'm on the right path.

But the posters on here led me to the impression that they could verify another's satori, so I was curious as to how they did it.
Pascal2 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:15 am
Matt J wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:14 pm Color me skeptical about self-authorizing claims.
Pascal2 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:00 pm

My master thinks he can judge
It is called tenken (点検)
Then what criteria do you put forward for checking out?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Matylda
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Pascal2 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:05 am
Interesting post.
I have practiced for years in a Soto temple where koans are used.
Usually, Soto does not use koans but the Master of that temple deemed koans as necessary for satori.
In other temples you just have to sit without meditating on the koan but the master of that temple was used to deride such kind of zazen as "sleeping zazen".

In Rinzai koans are used but I have heard voices that some people who still can not get the first koans are already admitted to the later ones.
Do you mean that you have practiced in Japan for years in a soto temple?
Today mostly people practice subsequent koans without kensho. It is typical practice in rinzai in Japan. In most places.
And generally one almost cannot find a place where real kensho is an entrance gate to futher koans. Nantembo roshi who died around 1925 worote about it at length over 100 years ago. I doubt that soto places where koans are still continued are much better in this respect.
Matylda
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Re: Soto zen and problem of satori

Post by Matylda »

Pascal2 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:01 pm
I am not so sure they are rare.
There are several temples in Japan where they practize Zazen seriously
Might be you are right. But as far as I know there are not many temples where there is any zazen. There are probably about 18 thousand zen temples of all 3 schools, soto rinzai and obaku. And most temples where they do have zazen offer it once a week, or once a month and still it is more social happening for local community. People bring food and other goodies, and after one hour of sleepy zazen spend another 2 hours eating chatting and drinking sake or beer :) Temple in Japan means basicly community with all implications...
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