Soto zen and problem of satori

[Matylda]

Soto has nothing special or different to offer, than any other zen school - it is satori, daigo and liberation. For this one has to work hard.

If practice is not realisation, but rather practice brings about realisation, then it is really nothing different. But then, why not just follow the established teachings of the Mahayana as taught in the sutras and shastras? That is a fairly well defined gradual path with identifiable goals and stages.

this is only a theoretical question and has nothing to do with zen practice itself. this view is prevalent nowdays in soto monasteries and means just nothing to do, we are already enlightened, what is not true in our situation and conditions which we experience. Unfortunatly people stick to that kind of views thniking that all is all right. Bu the bitter exam will come together with death.

[Wayfarer]

this view is prevalent nowdays in soto monasteries and means just nothing to do, we are already enlightened, what is not true in our situation and conditions which we experience. Unfortunatly people stick to that kind of views thniking that all is all right. But the bitter exam will come together with death.

This is why Shinran said the path of sages is for the few. Not that there's anything wrong about it, but that very few actually fulfil it.

[Matylda]

this view is prevalent nowdays in soto monasteries and means just nothing to do, we are already enlightened, what is not true in our situation and conditions which we experience. Unfortunatly people stick to that kind of views thniking that all is all right. But the bitter exam will come together with death.

This is why Shinran said the path of sages is for the few. Not that there's anything wrong about it, but that very few actually fulfil it.

Shinran in Japan is considered as one of most realised persons. I had to study Shinran for sometime, and very close friend of mine wrote great dissertation about Shinran. BTW he was himself student of Uchiyama roshi, later he had another teacher under whom he had deep kensho, and was very well versed in the teaching of all Sawaki roshi lineage, starting with Bokusan and others. From him i hard for the first time about Shinran in more detailed way. Before I knew nothing, only that he was forefather of shinshu, and I had no interest in him.

[Lillian]

Oh, I am so sorry. Did something happen to my post on Myogen Steve Stuckey?

My eyes are not good anymore, so I may be missing it.

[Wayfarer]

I have been attending a Jodo service, or had been, until the virus came along and put everything on hold. I started attending a Pure Land sangha because I realised if enlightenment was dependent on my own rather slapdash efforts then I was going to be in deep trouble. When services start up again, I will be attending. (That said, I still feel very drawn to Sōtō in particular and wish there was a Sōtō sangha in my locality.)

[Lillian]

Matsuoka is popular family name in Japan, so I cannot say if I know him or not. The similes are beautiful. The common reality down to the ground is quite different in my opinion. I never met even one soto person in the West who could show how easily gained satori. Anyway it would also mean that American soto folk is entirely enlightened, and simply solved the problem of life and death. Is that so? Could anyone die at ease, and show same power of samadhi like old masters of the past?
BTW this kind of sweet and soft approach often misdirects disciples. In fact in soto nobody knows today what is satori.
I remember Uchiyama roshi once talking about kensho, said how people naively state about this experience. He recalled his conversation with Shibayama Zenkei famous rinzai master from Nanzenji, whom he asked directly about kensho and if it is common and possible to attain this state in fast and easy way. Shibayama denied such claims, saying that it may take very long time and long years of devoted practice.

Oh, darling, I will tell you this. I have witnessed some of my closest and dearest friends in the Dharma in their struggles with ALS and cancer which eventually killed them. They did jump through death and no death. There is also this wonderful teacher from San Francisco who was an inspiration to many of us a few years ago, Myogen Steve Stuckey. Do you know him? So, yes, I know many who have put life and death away. Stuckey Roshi wrote this death poem.

“This human body truly is the entire cosmos
Each breath of mine, is equally one of yours, my darling
This tender abiding in “my” life
Is the fierce glowing fire of inner earth
Linking with all pre-phenomena
Flashing to the distant horizon
From “right here now” to “just this”
Now the horizon itself
Drops away—
Bodhi!
Svaha.”

Steve was a just sitter, as far as I know. I can give you many examples.

We like to say that you cannot gain what one already is right down to your toes! Yes, we are already Dogen, and all the Ancestors and the Buddha too. Some of us find this fact by becoming very very still, and realizing our Dogen that is always so. Steve might say, if Dogen wants to realize his Dogen nature, where does Dogen find Dogen?

Here is a beautiful talk by Steve that really captures his wisdom, Nirvana-Samsara: What’s the Difference? I recommend it to everyone. He talks about sitting as what is.

https://www.ancientdragon.org/speaker/steve-stucky/

It is just a different approach, and nobody is wrong about this, sweetie.

By the way, you said above, " In Gakudo yojin shu he openly wrote about it, what is the kye point of zen practice.. there is nothing about dropping of mind etc anyway." What do you mean, may I ask?

Lillian

Oh, I found it. Thank you. I only see out of one eye these days.

this is only a theoretical question and has nothing to do with zen practice itself. this view is prevalent nowdays in soto monasteries and means just nothing to do, we are already enlightened, what is not true in our situation and conditions which we experience. Unfortunatly people stick to that kind of views thniking that all is all right. Bu the bitter exam will come together with death.

Oh, this is so true! I have seen so many times when the truth of this practice shows in the hospice bad and the cancer ward. A Zen buddy lost a child. I see it this week with the attitude of many Buddhists to what is going on with the virus and the violence in the streets. Some people learn to see through all of it, face death ~~and~~ face life. They see through life and death, and then get on with living or dive into death. So right, Matylda.

[Matylda]

Dear Lilian

Do you mean all those teachers and realised practitioners went through intensive dokusan and check points which confirmed their realisation?

[Lillian]

Dear Lilian

Do you mean all those teachers and realised practitioners went through intensive dokusan and check points which confirmed their realisation?

Oh, darling, many roads and one Buddha land. Where do they lead? For some, it is the intensive dokusan room, for others it is intensive life. But where do they lead?

[Matylda]

Another case to think about.

I had to participate long ago in some official soto meetings. And if there was an anniversary of some famous master who died some hundreds and hundreds years ago, there was a lot of speachs like 'oh! we should follow him to repay our gratitude'.
But even when it was an important soto official who said so, there was simply no content, nothing what it really meant. Of course I read the story of the master in question and his life was like life of struggle and spiritual quest, days, nights, months, years of strenous practice and bitter taste of disapproval in dokusan, and poverty.. but... to commemorate him we had just soft drinks, good dinners, great deserts etc. in an expansive hotel, but nobody offered to gathered monks and laity dokusan, instructions or at least half an hour zazen.

Today there is nowhere such practice like of those famous soto masters of the past. So official commemorations became another bitter cake of hypocrisy in fact. We recall great masters but we do not do much, actually we do not follow them. We use their names but for what reason? To repeat again and again body/mind off [btw in Japan it is very seldom spoken of, actually such person if not really very high priest would be considered as very arrogant, but i hear it very often in the West]? Or that we are already enlightened [this one may be heard in Japan]? Or to feel better that we belong to the great tradition of soto zen? Once i heard it, maybe more than once, that we have the pride of being this great soto. My older cousine told me that for sure.
Yes soto tradition is great, no doubt, but its children are living on parents money.
Like Iida Toin once said about this situation, and it was before the war : „What a wonder! Looking at it, just one thought comes: Shakamuni died in a ditch!” It was very sour and bitter comment about state of things
There is no satori in soto anymore. Neither kensho. If there is shikan taza, it is often misunderstood changing all thing into fruitless sitting. It is what has happened to satori and realisation in soto zen. I think that Bokusan, Sotan, and others would be very very sad, if they could see the situation now.
Once i visited one of the main soto monasteries, the abbot was close friend of the family. I was told that it is day of exams, and monks one by one had to give some dharma talk on traditional soto text. So i went to listen. It was terrible, but one thing i remember when a monk who spend already some years in the monastery came up and said that Dogen zenji and Shaka sama already attained enlightment for us, and now we are grateful and happy! I thought that i would faint in a moment. I do not know what those monks were doing while zazen-ing...

[LastLegend]

Another case to think about.

I had to participate long ago in some official soto meetings. And if there was an anniversary of some famous master who died some hundreds and hundreds years ago, there was a lot of speachs like 'oh! we should follow him to repay our gratitude'.
But even when it was an important soto official who said so, there was simply no content, nothing what it really meant. Of course I read the story of the master in question and his life was like life of struggle and spiritual quest, days, nights, months, years of strenous practice and bitter taste of disapproval in dokusan, and poverty.. but... to commemorate him we had just soft drinks, good dinners, great deserts etc. in an expansive hotel, but nobody offered to gathered monks and laity dokusan, instructions or at least half an hour zazen.

Today there is nowhere such practice like of those famous soto masters of the past. So official commemorations became another bitter cake of hypocrisy in fact. We recall great masters but we do not do much, actually we do not follow them. We use their names but for what reason? To repeat again and again body/mind off [btw in Japan it is very seldom spoken of, actually such person if not really very high priest would be considered as very arrogant, but i hear it very often in the West]? Or that we are already enlightened [this one may be heard in Japan]? Or to feel better that we belong to the great tradition of soto zen? Once i heard it, maybe more than once, that we have the pride of being this great soto. My older cousine told me that for sure.
Yes soto tradition is great, no doubt, but its children are living on parents money.
Like Iida Toin once said about this situation, and it was before the war : „What a wonder! Looking at it, just one thought comes: Shakamuni died in a ditch!” It was very sour and bitter comment about state of things
There is no satori in soto anymore. Neither kensho. If there is shikan taza, it is often misunderstood changing all thing into fruitless sitting. It is what has happened to satori and realisation in soto zen. I think that Bokusan, Sotan, and others would be very very sad, if they could see the situation now.
Once i visited one of the main soto monasteries, the abbot was close friend of the family. I was told that it is day of exams, and monks one by one had to give some dharma talk on traditional soto text. So i went to listen. It was terrible, but one thing i remember when a monk who spend already some years in the monastery came up and said that Dogen zenji and Shaka sama already attained enlightment for us, and now we are grateful and happy! I thought that i would faint in a moment. I do not know what those monks were doing while zazen-ing...

Your expectation is very high for modern degenerative age where world is wretched with bad karma. Satori is not easy in any tradition. There is a rare one in a billion who has reached the Wisdom level of Buddhas. You might have an Arahant and possibly a Bodhisattva here and there.

[Meido]

Your expectation is very high for modern degenerative age where world is wretched with bad karma. Satori is not easy in any tradition. There is a rare one in a billion who have reached the Wisdom level of Buddhas. You might have an Arahant and possibly a Bodhisattva here and there.

One can believe that if one wants, for oneself. But no need to project it onto others.

If one wants to do Zen practice because of deep motivation, and to prove the truth of what the Patriarchs taught, then there is a path to do it. It is totally up to the individual.

If not, that is fine too. But it is totally a matter for oneself.

[LastLegend]

Your expectation is very high for modern degenerative age where world is wretched with bad karma. Satori is not easy in any tradition. There is a rare one in a billion who have reached the Wisdom level of Buddhas. You might have an Arahant and possibly a Bodhisattva here and there.

One can believe that if one wants, for oneself. But no need to project it onto others.

If one wants to do Zen practice because of deep motivation, and to prove the truth of what the Patriarchs taught, then there is a path to do it. It is totally up to the individual.

If not, that is fine too. But it is totally a matter for oneself.

I apologize if I offend you sir. You can take that lightly as a personal belief.

[Meido]

No offense taken at all. As I said, one can believe that if one wishes.

And in that case, I would think the next step would be to determine what path DOES fit one's conditions. And to do that, 100%, without looking back.

[LastLegend]

No offense taken at all. As I said, one can believe that if one wishes.

And in that case, I would think the next step would be to determine what path DOES fit one's conditions. And to do that, 100%, without looking back.

I am just believing that traceless state is difficult and reaching the wisdom level of Buddhas is even more difficult. Never said it’s impossible to transcend samsara. Different levels of attainments not necessarily the same samadhi.

[Matylda]

Your expectation is very high for modern degenerative age where world is wretched with bad karma. Satori is not easy in any tradition. There is a rare one in a billion who has reached the Wisdom level of Buddhas. You might have an Arahant and possibly a Bodhisattva here and there.

No I do not have very high neither high expectations. Just I am worried that my soto folk, my kins are going totally wrong way. Why we have nice meetings sweet speaches which are meaningless and good parties? I cannot make any sense out of it. It happens at Sojiji or other big monasteries. On the other side when rinzais had 250 anniversary they gethered in one monastery a few dozen of shike-roshis, and about 200 monks. Of course they had ceremonies, were served nice cousine, but first of all they had sesshin! one could have dokusan with each of the present roshis. Each roshi gave zen teisho, not terribly stupid talk how wonderful was the great master and we should repay his kindness and cheeers! whisky or beer?
I envy rinzais for such things. Why we, soto followers, cannot have at least something similar, but we play around and live on forefathers vritue? it has nothing to do with zen, neither with soto nor with anything. Yes, it is church, nothing else. if i have any expectation it is only - lets try.. try in serious way. Not everyone will be awakened, but to talk intelectual meaningless things, sit dead sitting and even this is cut to a minimum, it is just terrible.

[Meido]

We can hope/pray that someone comes along every century or few hundred years who can re-establish life in a lineage.

But is there any living Soto Zen master today that you see differently?

I have always thought that there must be some very special masters - both Soto and Rinzai - who are not so well known outside Japan (or even inside), but just quietly doing real practice.

I have always had the wish to study with a Soto teacher, if I could meet such a person.

[Matylda]

We can hope/pray that someone comes along every century or few hundred years who can re-establish life in a lineage.

But is there any living Soto Zen master today that you see differently?

I have always thought that there must be some very special masters - both Soto and Rinzai - who are not so well known outside Japan (or even inside), but just quietly doing real practice.

I have always had the wish to study with a Soto teacher, if I could meet such a person.

yes theare are few, but they will not change anything for sure.

lets look at reality within soto school

a few biggest names, one by one

Watanabe Genshu - 渡辺玄宗
he was a chief abbot of Sojiji, concerning firepower most powerful soto monastery. 90% of soto temples are under the spell of Sojiji
did he change anything? no. and he had great confidance in rinzai, many years practiced at Engakuji in Kamakura, finally received inka shomei from 宮路宗海 Miyaji Sokai, actually it is your dharma family lineage, coming through Tekisui Giboku and Imakiya Kosen from Sogenji. So he was Inzan fan. his samadhi power was astonishing... there is famous story that he got surgery on his neck without any anstetics. once he said to monk who practiced with him told about spirit of Lotus sutra 'to penetrate deep into samadhi and see buddhas in all 10 directions'. He spoke from the depth of his own experience, not repeating teachings of others.

When Genshu roshi was appointed shike at Daijoji in Kanazawa, 4th ranking soto monastery. But he decided, that he does not fit, and again went to Engaku in Kamakura after some time he got again inka shomei.. his students, and i knew a few of them, practiced koans and there was a lot of good guidance, and excellent training, i know about it from first hand witnesses, his close zen disciples.

When he was the abbot of Sojiji he was unable to change anything in soto, there was too much opposition.. definitely he was one of the most famous soto monks in Japan, and great master himself.
once i was taken to zenji in sojiji, another one of course. and i asked straight question about the matters of soto.. ha said straight away that bureaucrats of shumucho - administration headquarters - would fire him out for any attempt to change things.


Harada Daiun Sogaku
Famous master of Hosshinji, a candaidate for abbotship of Eiheiji. Very fierce master who put lot of stress on kensho experience and post kensho practice. Famous and no influence on soto school.

Keido Chisan - teacher of Jiyu Kenet roshi

soto monk, at the age of 40 got inka shomei from Nantembo roshi - one of most famous rinzai masters. Chisan roshi was also abbot of Sojiji, and.. nothing changed.

Just recently

Miyazaki Ekiho roshi

Inka shomei holder both in soto and in rinzai - Daitokuji lineage. This I heard directly from rinzai roshi whom i trust. He was himself really great personality, but unable to change anything.

One has to keep in mind that power in soto is on the side of shumucho... there is big power, big money etc. if there was scandal with corruption in Shumucho the sum stolen mounted up to 70 mln us dollars. Money, power etc. kills zen practice.. even if there were masters like Dogen, they would fire him out... I am quite sure about it. There is only possibility that particular personality would leave official soto with all rotten problems and create completely knew thing. There were already a few attempts since 100 y ago, but all failed.

[Meido]

Thank you for this.

[Matylda]

But still there could be a few people in soto who are worth of respect, but it is difficult to find them. Maybe if one is in the very inner circles it is not a problem, sometimes there are hidden in the monastery and they look like very royal followers of the church. But if one observes them carefuly and their behavior, and has chance to ask question, then it could be very amazing discovery. However it is really rare nowdays. Very rare.

[LastLegend]

But still there could be a few people in soto who are worth of respect, but it is difficult to find them. Maybe if one is in the very inner circles it is not a problem, sometimes there are hidden in the monastery and they look like very royal followers of the church. But if one observes them carefuly and their behavior, and has chance to ask question, then it could be very amazing discovery. However it is really rare nowdays. Very rare.

Those guys are possibly ancient Buddhas. It’s rare to meet them.