Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

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Justmeagain
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Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Justmeagain »

Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Astus »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 amIs this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?
Zen in general is a "unified" or rather simultaneous practice of samatha/samadhi and vipasyana/prajna, so it's not one after another. Practising with nimitta, that's a uniquely theravadin method.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by friendly »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
Jhana as deep concentration state not meaning of Shikantaza Zazen. Some say Shikantaza is 4th Jhana of Suttas, which originally is highest Jhana and is not deep concentration state like for 4th Jhana describtion in Visuddhimagga of later Buddhism. Shikantaza is kind of equanimity and balance without judging and tangling thoughts. Sometimes sitting Shikantaza there is deep concentration state, but it is not seeking for that.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by LastLegend »

friendly wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 5:42 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
Jhana as deep concentration state not meaning of Shikantaza Zazen. Some say Shikantaza is 4th Jhana of Suttas, which originally is highest Jhana and is not deep concentration state like for 4th Jhana describtion in Visuddhimagga of later Buddhism. Shikantaza is kind of equanimity and balance without judging and tangling thoughts. Sometimes sitting Shikantaza there is deep concentration state, but it is not seeking for that.
What you describe Shikantaza there is the method, but the popular teaching it’s both the method and the fruit. From Zen to Nichiren to Tibetan. Training to realize complete awakening emptiness is the emphasis, though initially (maybe Tibetan practitioners) they train in Siddhis and so are some East Asian practitioners. People can have the five Siddhis and still has not fully awakened to Mahaprajna emptiness. In fact, Bodhisattva work doesn’t really untilize Siddhis. Regarding Jhanas, Mahayana doesn’t not put emphasis on those.
It’s eye blinking.
Justmeagain
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Justmeagain »

LastLegend wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 6:49 pm
friendly wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 5:42 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
Jhana as deep concentration state not meaning of Shikantaza Zazen. Some say Shikantaza is 4th Jhana of Suttas, which originally is highest Jhana and is not deep concentration state like for 4th Jhana describtion in Visuddhimagga of later Buddhism. Shikantaza is kind of equanimity and balance without judging and tangling thoughts. Sometimes sitting Shikantaza there is deep concentration state, but it is not seeking for that.
Regarding Jhanas, Mahayana doesn’t not put emphasis on those.
Why is that?
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by LastLegend »

Zafutales wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 7:42 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 6:49 pm
friendly wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 5:42 pm

Jhana as deep concentration state not meaning of Shikantaza Zazen. Some say Shikantaza is 4th Jhana of Suttas, which originally is highest Jhana and is not deep concentration state like for 4th Jhana describtion in Visuddhimagga of later Buddhism. Shikantaza is kind of equanimity and balance without judging and tangling thoughts. Sometimes sitting Shikantaza there is deep concentration state, but it is not seeking for that.
Regarding Jhanas, Mahayana doesn’t not put emphasis on those.
Why is that?
Because Mahayana teaches emptiness/Mahaprajna which isn’t any thing at all that our Skandhas make it to be. This is where Mahayana transcends self and even Dharma. They say this is the deepest teaching. Once transcend both self and Dharma, certain things will automatically clear as our wisdom corresponds with dharma realms or wisdom of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. It doesn’t stop there, people will continue to develop their wisdom to the complete wisdom of a Buddha by working to benefit sentient beings. Once transcended both self and Dharma, they work to benefit sentient beings by simply using their one thought to transform the world. For example, a terrible storm is about to hit, they can change the direction of the storm through just one thought. Not Siddhis.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by SteRo »

Zafutales wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 7:42 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 7:56 pm Regarding Jhanas, Mahayana doesn’t not put emphasis on those.
Why is that?
The dhyanas are practiced in Mahayana, too. They are considered an essential aspect in Prajnaparamita according to Abhisamayalamkara. Nevertheless, there may be some Mahayana sects that don't practice them. But yes, the kind of emphasis put on the dhyanas in Theravada is special.
LastLegend wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 6:49 pm In fact, Bodhisattva work doesn’t really untilize Siddhis.
That isn't correct generally in Mahayana, but maybe it's the view in Zen.

The problem is that LastLegend makes claims for Mahayana in general but does not restrict his claims to some Mahayana sects.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by SteRo »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen?
It's always problematic to approach a lineage with the view of another lineage. Don't do that. If you are dissatisfied with Theravada and want to try Soto then first forget everything you've learned in Theravada.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by LastLegend »

That isn't correct generally in Mahayana, but maybe it's the view in Zen.

The problem is that LastLegend makes claims for Mahayana in general but does not restrict his claims to some Mahayana sects.
The problem is when there is a view that is ‘out there,’ and people cannot verify anywhere in the texts or by their teachers, it’s automatically rejected and questioned. So I am arguing then what do we actually know for yourself that we think are absolutely true? Comfort Zone?

Anyway going back to jhanas maybe people can train for jhanas and emptiness at the same time. It’s not the case for Soto? By description of Shikantaza, it starts what we inherently have-Buddha nature which is emptiness or empty nature. If practitioners start else where other than Buddha nature, how are they going to reconcile later on with emptiness?
It’s eye blinking.
DeadCircuits
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by DeadCircuits »

Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
I would say forget about the Jhanas and Nimittas and all that.

That is not to say that samadhi is not a factor in zazen, it may arise. But if you are sitting there trying to conjure up special states of concentration, or looking for signs that you are about to enter some special state, then you are not really practising zazen.

I've had experience with Theravada meditation, and I'd say even within it's own traditional context, the notion of there being a series of 'meditative absorptions' to attain does more harm than good, especially if one is practising without a teacher. I'd say just let all that go.
Justmeagain
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Justmeagain »

DeadCircuits wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:03 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:00 am Hi,

Can someone help me with understanding this - my time with the Theravada help me understand the importance of concentration, leading to absorption, leading (potentially) to Jhana and ultimately insights.

Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Sorry of these are noob questions?
I would say forget about the Jhanas and Nimittas and all that.

That is not to say that samadhi is not a factor in zazen, it may arise. But if you are sitting there trying to conjure up special states of concentration, or looking for signs that you are about to enter some special state, then you are not really practising zazen.

I've had experience with Theravada meditation, and I'd say even within it's own traditional context, the notion of there being a series of 'meditative absorptions' to attain does more harm than good, especially if one is practising without a teacher. I'd say just let all that go.
Blimey! Thats quite some advice!!!

This emphasizes that MASSIVE difference between the two practices - I would go as far as stating that based on this they are two different religions, philosophies with palpably different goals. If the Theravada states that Jhana is an imperative to insight and you as a Zen practitioner saying ignore Jhana whats the poor boy to do then?

Like the song says, "...two men say they're Jesus, one of them has to be wrong..."
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by DeadCircuits »

Zafutales wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:18 am
Blimey! Thats quite some advice!!!

This emphasizes that MASSIVE difference between the two practices - I would go as far as stating that based on this they are two different religions, philosophies with palpably different goals. If the Theravada states that Jhana is an imperative to insight and you as a Zen practitioner saying ignore Jhana whats the poor boy to do then?

Like the song says, "...two men say they're Jesus, one of them has to be wrong..."
Even within the Theravada context I think practitioners place way too much emphasis on jhana. That is not to say that it doesn't comprise an important aspect of that path, but it seems like people get very hung up on being able to do a backflip before they can even ride a bike. What's more a lot of people get fixated on doing backflips without anyone to teach them how to ride their bike. In that sense even as a Theravada meditator I would say it's best to ignore it.

Also from my understanding, jhanas arise at a point of having let go sufficiently. So they aren't going to happen if you cling to them. So what better advice than to just ignore them instead of trying to attain them?

Zazen in my view places exactly the right amount of emphasis on these deep states of samadhi. That being none. It doesn't preclude them, but it doesn't make the practise about them, which is a pitfall when you introduce them as levels of attainment as is done in the Theravada tradition. You can't ever really let go if you are measuring your meditation against these ideas you have about it.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Meido »

DeadCircuits wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:02 pm Zazen in my view places exactly the right amount of emphasis on these deep states of samadhi. That being none. It doesn't preclude them, but it doesn't make the practise about them, which is a pitfall when you introduce them as levels of attainment as is done in the Theravada tradition. You can't ever really let go if you are measuring your meditation against these ideas you have about it.
I know this is the Soto forum. But just to point out that the statement "That being none" in reference to zazen does not hold for zazen as conceived in most of Chan/Zen.

No Chan/Zen practice is primarily about samadhi of course: it is about awakening. But profound samadhi as indispensable foundation of the path - by means of which obstructions to awakening are dissolved, the state ripe for awakening is entered, and then afterward one deepens, clarifies, and embodies that awakening - is the general view in Zen, constituting the primary rationale for zazen in the first place. And as there are written and orally transmitted details regarding what constitutes samadhi, one is in fact quite often measuring one's meditation against these (rather than against one's own ideas about it).

Rinzai practice classically requires one to have experience of the deep samadhi described by Hakuin as like being frozen in a vast sheet of ice, and then to enter the state "black like lacquer" in which the senses and all sense of time/space drop utterly away: the "great death" that creates conditions for awakening upon one's exiting from that state. On the Chinese Chan side, Xu Yun was a more recent example famous for his "long dwelling" in samadhi." There are many examples like this.

Talk of samadhi, different types of samadhi, the cultivation of samadhi in activity, the effects of specific usage of body, breath/subtle energetics, and mind on the depth and refinement of samadhi, the dangers of mistaking dull, peaceful states for samadhi and fixating upon them, etc. is everywhere in Zen. The 6th Patriarch and others describe clearly the true Zen samadhi, which is not meditative absorption alone but rather realization of a seamless unity of samadhi and the upwelling of prajna.

A specific use of the eyes is, in fact, one of the transmitted details of zazen that has the purpose of causing gross thought activity to still and allowing one to enter samadhi more easily.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by friendly »

Maybe in Soto, Dogen Samadhi little different way to express Samadhi. Samadhi is not concentration Samadhi, but Buddha sitting. Maybe so, I feel.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by DeadCircuits »

Meido wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:32 pm
I know this is the Soto forum. But just to point out that the statement "That being none" in reference to zazen does not hold for zazen as conceived in most of Chan/Zen.

No Chan/Zen practice is primarily about samadhi of course: it is about awakening. But profound samadhi as indispensable foundation of the path - by means of which obstructions to awakening are dissolved, the state ripe for awakening is entered, and then afterward one deepens, clarifies, and embodies that awakening - is the general view in Zen, constituting the primary rationale for zazen in the first place. And as there are written and orally transmitted details regarding what constitutes samadhi, one is in fact quite often measuring one's meditation against these (rather than against one's own ideas about it).

Rinzai practice classically requires one to have experience of the deep samadhi described by Hakuin as like being frozen in a vast sheet of ice, and then to enter the state "black like lacquer" in which the senses and all sense of time/space drop utterly away: the "great death" that creates conditions for awakening upon one's exiting from that state. On the Chinese Chan side, Xu Yun was a more recent example famous for his "long dwelling" in samadhi." There are many examples like this.

Talk of samadhi, different types of samadhi, the cultivation of samadhi in activity, the effects of specific usage of body, breath/subtle energetics, and mind on the depth and refinement of samadhi, the dangers of mistaking dull, peaceful states for samadhi and fixating upon them, etc. is everywhere in Zen. The 6th Patriarch and others describe clearly the true Zen samadhi, which is not meditative absorption alone but rather realization of a seamless unity of samadhi and the upwelling of prajna.

A specific use of the eyes is, in fact, one of the transmitted details of zazen that has the purpose of causing gross thought activity to still and allowing one to enter samadhi more easily.
Perhaps I misspoke (or whatever the equivalent is in writing). I was speaking in comparison to the Theravada tradition, where jhanas are talked about frequently, and the signs and precise stages of these levels of absorption are described in detail. Whereas, in my experience Zen is more about sitting without trying to attain a special state---which as I understand it, if cultivated is the path to samadhi, but the emphasis is not so much 'when you meditate try to rid your mind of the hindrances, then after cultivating a certain level of concentration, move your focus on the sensation of joy etc.' Which is very much how things are taught in Theravada---or at least by some teachers.

So, I didn't mean to make it sound as though Zen doesn't involve samadhi, just that it's approach is not to present it in a way that one can get attached to it as the goal of meditation. Which having been a Theravada practitioner in the past, really held me back in my practise.

I appreciate the clarification.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by LastLegend »

DeadCircuits wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:02 pm Zazen in my view places exactly the right amount of emphasis on these deep states of samadhi. That being none. It doesn't preclude them, but it doesn't make the practise about them, which is a pitfall when you introduce them as levels of attainment as is done in the Theravada tradition. You can't ever really let go if you are measuring your meditation against these ideas you have about it.
Agreed. Because Buddha nature is enlightened nature that’s alert and clear yet no traces nowhere to be found but pervasive. It’s all also called unborn Wisdom/Mahaprajna.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by Meido »

DeadCircuits wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:11 pm I was speaking in comparison to the Theravada tradition, where jhanas are talked about frequently, and the signs and precise stages of these levels of absorption are described in detail.
Right, and like I said I recognize this is the Soto forum so apologies for chiming in. But again, in much of the Zen world types and depth of samadhi are talked about frequently, with signs described in detail.
DeadCircuits wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:11 pm So, I didn't mean to make it sound as though Zen doesn't involve samadhi, just that it's approach is not to present it in a way that one can get attached to it as the goal of meditation. Which having been a Theravada practitioner in the past, really held me back in my practise.
Attachment to such states is a potential pitfall everywhere, I think; Zen is certainly not immune to that, and there are many warnings about it. But I actually tend to think the danger may be greater in traditions where such things are not so clearly mapped and discussed. In any case, we have to remember that in Zen it is the teacher's job to recognize such fixation on the student's part, and intervene to refocus the student on the actual goal which rests upon the aspiration summed up in the 4 vows.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by HePo »

DeadCircuits wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:02 pm ...
Zazen in my view places exactly the right amount of emphasis on these deep states of samadhi. That being none.
....
Actually in Soto Zen temples / monasteries the Hokyo Zanmai (Precious Mirror Samadhi) is recited daily.
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Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?

Post by DeadCircuits »

HePo wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:30 am Actually in Soto Zen temples / monasteries the Hokyo Zanmai (Precious Mirror Samadhi) is recited daily.
I agree I misspoke. See my other post for clarification.

I feel as though the emphasis is different compared to Theravada where beginners can easily get lost as meditation is presented as stages leading to jhanas---which can easily lead one to become fixated on them as the "goal" of meditation. Whereas Zen teaches meditators not to try to achieve any special state which is in my view a way more appropriate way of presenting it.
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