Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Matylda
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Matylda »

沢木興道自伝

this could be the title. If Muho has all books by Sawaki roshi there will be no problem to find it. I checked Japanese edition of wikipedia tey have bibliography but very short.. He had written many more books. Myslef I had once 20 vol edition and it was not all.

As for the content of his JIDEN it was just according to his life chronology. There was a chap. about his time as a shike at Daijiji in Kumamoto, his love experience when he was a young monk and how he met the lady maybe 40 or 50 yeas later when they were both over 70 etc etc.. just what comes to my memory 20 years after reading the book, which I made a present to someone else later on.
Last edited by Matylda on Mon May 25, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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It’s watered down because people are householders and hard to be disciplined I am pretty lazy so there has to be a different way to reach enlightenment given nature is accurately understood.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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The lineage is disconnected if nature is not accurate understood, no matter strict discipline.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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I don’t know about Japan, but East Asian temples are corrupted with gain and exceptionally rare if not none to see one actual enlightened person.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Matylda »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:20 pm I don’t know about Japan, but East Asian temples are corrupted with gain and exceptionally rare if not none to see one actual enlightened person.
Japan is in the same situation, just like anywhere else, east, west, north or south.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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But during degenerative age, the Buddha predicted householders actually do better then people in temples.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Meido »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:36 pm But during degenerative age, the Buddha predicted householders actually do better then people in temples.
Sure, in Chan/Zen there has never been a strict idea that one cannot accomplish the path within ordinary life. But this "ordinary life" of a practitioner is very different from ordinary life.

For examples of accomplished householders that are held up as exemplary and how they lived, please see the lives of people like Ho Koji (layman Pang): a wealthy merchant who one day took all his possessions, put them on a boat in the river, sank it, and thereafter wandered (with his wife and daughter) to visit and practice with various masters, while making bamboo baskets to survive. Or Yamaoka Tesshu in late Edo and Meiji, who lived in poverty and practiced in a manner that most people could not endure even one day of, let alone years. For people like this, who cares if they wore black robes or white?

In the modern era there is an increasingly common conceit (not just in Zen) that "practice in daily life" means that one can adjust practice to fit one's life, instead of adjusting one's life to fit practice. There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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Meido wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:13 pm
Sure, in Chan/Zen there has never been a strict idea that one cannot accomplish the path within ordinary life. But this "ordinary life" of a practitioner is very different from ordinary life.

For examples of accomplished householders that are held up as exemplary and how they lived, please see the lives of people like Ho Koji (layman Pang): a wealthy merchant who one day took all his possessions, put them on a boat in the river, sank it, and thereafter wandered (with his wife and daughter) to visit and practice with various masters, while making bamboo baskets to survive. Or Yamaoka Tesshu in late Edo and Meiji, who lived in poverty and practiced in a manner that most people could not endure even one day of, let alone years. For people like this, who cares if they wore black robes or white?
There is a period of great hardship that people have to go through: a lot of sacrifice. Not only that but Mara phenomenon is real. I am nowhere near that. The path I am taught is to make vows and not recognized by anyone because that’s a personal conviction. Vows are the best force for the path I am following and in most Sutras Buddhas have their vows. Courage is the common theme. People can vow to challenge Mara but he might not pay attention until we are ready. He will continue to bother after enlightenment.
In the modern era there is an increasingly common conceit (not just in Zen) that "practice in daily life" means that one can adjust practice to fit one's life, instead of adjusting one's life to fit practice. There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.
I get the emphasis of strict discipline and practice from Japan Zen, and the conceit is there it’s karma 😄. But it’s totally correct there is a personal intention to direct practice. The path I am following put emphasis on vows as the most potent force of enlightenment because sincere strong vows will speed to enlightenment but that means hardship and change to one’s life. Not talking about regular vows like ‘I vow to liberate all sentient beings.’ Vows are specifically made like we are Buddhas ourselves and they will become effective quickly depends on how strong they are. This path takes courage or take it slow and steady. I don’t have such courage yet.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by friendly »

Matt J wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:35 pm Sorry to be controversial, but I think it is possible to be done wrong.

Zen, according to the traditional summary attributed to Bodhidharma is:

A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not depending on words and letters;
Directly pointing to the mind
Seeing into one’s true nature
and attaining Buddhahood.
(emphasis added)

For a long while in zazen, I just sank into a trance like state. I guess it is not ultimately wrong, because I realized by experience that it was not helpful. Had I practiced my whole life in this state, I feel my life would have wasted. I didn't realize it until I found Chan descriptions essentially stating I was cultivating the animal realm. I had to actually seek "the direct pointing" outside of Soto, namely in (specific) Rinzai and (specific) Dzogchen circles. In my experience, it seems like two different practices. In this regard, I think Soto style zazen is actually a very advanced practice, but very few can fully actualize it. I am sure this would be heavily disputed by authorized, official Soto masters, especially in the West. I don't say this to criticize or cause tension in minds, but I wish some one had told me about it. If you don't agree, feel free to disregard.
Yes, yes, many good ways point to point just this. So, point over there, point inside, point at moon. Or, sit Zazen not looking over there, over here. It is not trance. If somebody teach trance or dead sitting, that is not Shikantaza way. It is all power right here, no need look there or there. No inside no outside. Sometimes people stand on top Eiffel Tower looking for Paris! They need help to find to Paris. Other people need big fireworks over tower to see. They don't know that they are already Parisian! :rolling:
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by friendly »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:36 pm But during degenerative age, the Buddha predicted householders actually do better then people in temples.
Daily life in dusty world strong practice place. Ordinary people think ordinary, but it is strong practice place to strong practicer. Monastery is safe behind walls, but world is fire. Not for coward, no place to run.

Today, my friend wrote this to our Sangha. She does Zazen with us from hospital bed by video, very sick.

I can't think of a more perfect place to practice Shikantaza than an Acute Care Cardiac Unit. It's one of the best sittings I've ever experienced. ... I should get a tshirt made up saying "I wanted miracles but Zazen only gave me reality" ... Shikantaza is indeed a gift. ... Today I'm thankful for this Sangha and its members who are being generous in sharing their lived experiences. I'm reminded that the world is small and we have more in common than not.

It is Acute Care Cardiac Zazen
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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The view is this: the only reason why we make vows like Buddha Avalokitesvara is because we aspire to become a Buddha. That’s a great seed and will sprout. Such seed means sacrifice (sometimes means sacrifice skandhas or death) for sentient beings. But let’s take it slow because we don’t want anything we can’t endure :lol: . The greater the seed the greater the force and will lead us there. Good karma here and it still applies. The same rule applies for rebirth whatever we love most such karma will lead rebirth.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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Such vows are potent because it’s line with Buddhas’ vows and because Buddhas use wisdom to liberate sentient beings and so vows mean wisdom eventually post-enlightenment. Vows are the seed, wisdom is the fruit because in order to liberate sentient beings (mind gears towards) such, wisdom will develop.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Matylda »

Meido wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:13 pm There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.
It is the main point. Dogen gave many examples of laymen who did practice like I could say Yamaoka Tesshu. Giving themselves during the day to all tasks and work, while all night doing zazen. It was principle, and still is, if one wants to call oneself a zen person. It does not matter if it is soto, rinzai, chan or whatever what is called zen.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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friendly wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 5:20 pm Monastery is safe behind walls, but world is fire. Not for coward, no place to run.
Monastery is not exactly behind the walls. It is good place for zazen if not the best, at least according to Dogen's teachings. But he did not deny lay practice. Never. However the world is full of distraction, it is in fact not place for practice. But there is no other way, than to try our best.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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Matylda wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:45 pm
Meido wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:13 pm There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.
It is the main point. Dogen gave many examples of laymen who did practice like I could say Yamaoka Tesshu. Giving themselves during the day to all tasks and work, while all night doing zazen. It was principle, and still is, if one wants to call oneself a zen person. It does not matter if it is soto, rinzai, chan or whatever what is called zen.
While practice diligently is good, but this view is prevalent amongst all Zen practitioners across the globe the emphasis is put on the practice. It is good because it’s like cooking rice we have to leave it on stove instead of keep taking it off. It’s not to shake one’s attitude but it’s quite rare to see an actual enlightened being whether lay or monastic. Not sure what the cause is. Unless people want to argue it isn’t true?

The extra conviction is needed in vows, though surprisingly numerous Buddhas discussed their vows, yet no teacher has even taught to make vows like them.

For example, Yakushi Nyorai Buddha has 12 vows:

The Twelve Vows of the Medicine Buddha upon attaining Enlightenment, according to the Medicine Buddha Sutra[6] are:

1. I vow that my body shall shine as beams of brilliant light on this infinite and boundless world, showering on all beings, getting rid of their ignorance and worries with my teachings. May all beings be like me, with a perfect status and character, upright mind and soul, and finally attaining enlightenment like the Buddha.

2. I vow that my body be like crystal, pure and flawless, radiating rays of splendid light to every corner, brightening up and enlightening all beings with wisdom. With the blessings of compassion, may all beings strengthen their spiritual power and physical energy, so that they could fulfill their dreams on the right track.

3. I vow that I shall grant by means of boundless wisdom, all beings with the inexhaustible things that they require, and relieving them from all pains and guilt resulting from materialistic desires. Although clothing, food, accommodation and transport are essentials, it should be utilized wisely as well. Besides self-consumption, the remaining should be generously shared with the community so that all could live harmoniously together.

4. I vow to lead those who have gone astray back to the path of righteousness. Let them be corrected and returned to the Buddha way for enlightenment.

5. I vow that I shall enable all sentient beings to observe precepts for spiritual purity and moral conduct. Should there be any relapse or violation, they shall be guided by repentance. Provided they sincerely regret their wrong-doings, and vow for a change with constant prayers and strong faith in the Buddha, they could receive the rays of forgiveness, recover their lost moral and purity.

6. I vow that all beings who are physically disabled or sick in all aspects be blessed with good health, both physically and mentally. All who pay homage to Buddha faithfully will be blessed.

7. I vow to relieve all pain and poverty of the very sick and poor. The sick be cured, the helpless be helped, the poor be assisted.

8. I vow to help women who are undergoing sufferings and tortures and seeking for transformation into men. By hearing my name, paying homage and praying, their wishes would be granted and ultimately attain Buddhahood.

9. I vow to free all beings from evil thought and its control. I shall lead them onto the path of light through inculcating them with righteousness and honour so that they will walk the Buddha way.

10. I vow to save prisoners who have genuinely repented and victims of natural disasters. My supreme powers will bless those who are sincere and be freed from sufferings.

11. I vow to save those who suffer from starvation and those who committed a crime to obtain food. If they hear my name and faithfully cherish it, I shall lead them to the advantages of Dharma and favour them with the best food that they may eventually lead a tranquil and happy life.

12. I vow to save those who suffer from poverty, tormented by mosquitoes and wasps day and night. If they come across my name, cherish it with sincerity and practice dharma to strengthen their merits, they will be able to achieve their wishes


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaisajyaguru
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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But knowing clearly this is only aspired conviction, and not deluded to think we are actual Buddhas.

For example, ‘I vow to follow all sentient beings I’ve eaten from present and numerous past life to cause them to become enlightened just like I am once I am enlightened.’
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by HePo »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:32 pm
Matylda wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:45 pm
Meido wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:13 pm There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.
It is the main point. Dogen gave many examples of laymen who did practice like I could say Yamaoka Tesshu. Giving themselves during the day to all tasks and work, while all night doing zazen. It was principle, and still is, if one wants to call oneself a zen person. It does not matter if it is soto, rinzai, chan or whatever what is called zen.
While practice diligently is good, but this view is prevalent amongst all Zen practitioners across the globe the emphasis is put on the practice. It is good because it’s like cooking rice we have to leave it on stove instead of keep taking it off. It’s not to shake one’s attitude but it’s quite rare to see an actual enlightened being whether lay or monastic. Not sure what the cause is. Unless people want to argue it isn’t true?

The extra conviction is needed in vows, though surprisingly numerous Buddhas discussed their vows, yet no teacher has even taught to make vows like them.

For example, Yakushi Nyorai Buddha has 12 vows:

The Twelve Vows of the Medicine Buddha upon attaining Enlightenment, according to the Medicine Buddha Sutra[6] are:

1. I vow that my body shall shine as beams of brilliant light on this infinite and boundless world, showering on all beings, getting rid of their ignorance and worries with my teachings. May all beings be like me, with a perfect status and character, upright mind and soul, and finally attaining enlightenment like the Buddha.

2. I vow that my body be like crystal, pure and flawless, radiating rays of splendid light to every corner, brightening up and enlightening all beings with wisdom. With the blessings of compassion, may all beings strengthen their spiritual power and physical energy, so that they could fulfill their dreams on the right track.

3. I vow that I shall grant by means of boundless wisdom, all beings with the inexhaustible things that they require, and relieving them from all pains and guilt resulting from materialistic desires. Although clothing, food, accommodation and transport are essentials, it should be utilized wisely as well. Besides self-consumption, the remaining should be generously shared with the community so that all could live harmoniously together.

4. I vow to lead those who have gone astray back to the path of righteousness. Let them be corrected and returned to the Buddha way for enlightenment.

5. I vow that I shall enable all sentient beings to observe precepts for spiritual purity and moral conduct. Should there be any relapse or violation, they shall be guided by repentance. Provided they sincerely regret their wrong-doings, and vow for a change with constant prayers and strong faith in the Buddha, they could receive the rays of forgiveness, recover their lost moral and purity.

6. I vow that all beings who are physically disabled or sick in all aspects be blessed with good health, both physically and mentally. All who pay homage to Buddha faithfully will be blessed.

7. I vow to relieve all pain and poverty of the very sick and poor. The sick be cured, the helpless be helped, the poor be assisted.

8. I vow to help women who are undergoing sufferings and tortures and seeking for transformation into men. By hearing my name, paying homage and praying, their wishes would be granted and ultimately attain Buddhahood.

9. I vow to free all beings from evil thought and its control. I shall lead them onto the path of light through inculcating them with righteousness and honour so that they will walk the Buddha way.

10. I vow to save prisoners who have genuinely repented and victims of natural disasters. My supreme powers will bless those who are sincere and be freed from sufferings.

11. I vow to save those who suffer from starvation and those who committed a crime to obtain food. If they hear my name and faithfully cherish it, I shall lead them to the advantages of Dharma and favour them with the best food that they may eventually lead a tranquil and happy life.

12. I vow to save those who suffer from poverty, tormented by mosquitoes and wasps day and night. If they come across my name, cherish it with sincerity and practice dharma to strengthen their merits, they will be able to achieve their wishes


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaisajyaguru
Could you explain how this is related to Soto Zen?
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by LastLegend »

HePo wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:36 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:32 pm
Matylda wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:45 pm

It is the main point. Dogen gave many examples of laymen who did practice like I could say Yamaoka Tesshu. Giving themselves during the day to all tasks and work, while all night doing zazen. It was principle, and still is, if one wants to call oneself a zen person. It does not matter if it is soto, rinzai, chan or whatever what is called zen.
While practice diligently is good, but this view is prevalent amongst all Zen practitioners across the globe the emphasis is put on the practice. It is good because it’s like cooking rice we have to leave it on stove instead of keep taking it off. It’s not to shake one’s attitude but it’s quite rare to see an actual enlightened being whether lay or monastic. Not sure what the cause is. Unless people want to argue it isn’t true?

The extra conviction is needed in vows, though surprisingly numerous Buddhas discussed their vows, yet no teacher has even taught to make vows like them.

For example, Yakushi Nyorai Buddha has 12 vows:

The Twelve Vows of the Medicine Buddha upon attaining Enlightenment, according to the Medicine Buddha Sutra[6] are:

1. I vow that my body shall shine as beams of brilliant light on this infinite and boundless world, showering on all beings, getting rid of their ignorance and worries with my teachings. May all beings be like me, with a perfect status and character, upright mind and soul, and finally attaining enlightenment like the Buddha.

2. I vow that my body be like crystal, pure and flawless, radiating rays of splendid light to every corner, brightening up and enlightening all beings with wisdom. With the blessings of compassion, may all beings strengthen their spiritual power and physical energy, so that they could fulfill their dreams on the right track.

3. I vow that I shall grant by means of boundless wisdom, all beings with the inexhaustible things that they require, and relieving them from all pains and guilt resulting from materialistic desires. Although clothing, food, accommodation and transport are essentials, it should be utilized wisely as well. Besides self-consumption, the remaining should be generously shared with the community so that all could live harmoniously together.

4. I vow to lead those who have gone astray back to the path of righteousness. Let them be corrected and returned to the Buddha way for enlightenment.

5. I vow that I shall enable all sentient beings to observe precepts for spiritual purity and moral conduct. Should there be any relapse or violation, they shall be guided by repentance. Provided they sincerely regret their wrong-doings, and vow for a change with constant prayers and strong faith in the Buddha, they could receive the rays of forgiveness, recover their lost moral and purity.

6. I vow that all beings who are physically disabled or sick in all aspects be blessed with good health, both physically and mentally. All who pay homage to Buddha faithfully will be blessed.

7. I vow to relieve all pain and poverty of the very sick and poor. The sick be cured, the helpless be helped, the poor be assisted.

8. I vow to help women who are undergoing sufferings and tortures and seeking for transformation into men. By hearing my name, paying homage and praying, their wishes would be granted and ultimately attain Buddhahood.

9. I vow to free all beings from evil thought and its control. I shall lead them onto the path of light through inculcating them with righteousness and honour so that they will walk the Buddha way.

10. I vow to save prisoners who have genuinely repented and victims of natural disasters. My supreme powers will bless those who are sincere and be freed from sufferings.

11. I vow to save those who suffer from starvation and those who committed a crime to obtain food. If they hear my name and faithfully cherish it, I shall lead them to the advantages of Dharma and favour them with the best food that they may eventually lead a tranquil and happy life.

12. I vow to save those who suffer from poverty, tormented by mosquitoes and wasps day and night. If they come across my name, cherish it with sincerity and practice dharma to strengthen their merits, they will be able to achieve their wishes


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaisajyaguru
Could you explain how this is related to Soto Zen?
It’s related to Soto Zen because like all Zen across the globe, they only emphasize meditation (specific one for Soto: Zazen), but this modern era it’s rare to see an actual enlightened being the best that most of us could get to is: a state of clarity. Even though traditionally, Dogen taught primary sitting Zazen as the method. It’s rare now that meditation produces enlightened beings: 1) Buddha nature is not explained clearly and most of us today don’t even know that this state of clarity is still consciousness being the second moon. Let alone how is first moon clearly explained? 2) There is no explanation post enlightenment work or what enlightenment looks like. This goes for all Zen in East Asia even in Vietnam, China, Korea, etc. The original intention of Zen/Chan is to quickly produce enlightened beings, but that has become difficult. Enlightenment isn’t a place we want to go to but of course the choice to stay because of vows or just leave. Zen is still Mahayana a vehicle for many not just individual. I come off as disrespectful and offensive, but just to be clear people can strictly follow lineage of Zazen and that is introduced to Buddha nature and practice Zazen sitting. That’s cool.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by HePo »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 pm ...'
....
It’s related to Soto Zen because like all Zen across the globe, they only emphasize meditation (specific one for Soto: Zazen), but this modern era it’s rare to see an actual enlightened being the best that most of us could get to is: a state of clarity. Even though traditionally, Dogen taught primary sitting Zazen as the method. It’s rare now that meditation produces enlightened beings: 1) Buddha nature is not explained clearly and most of us today don’t even know that this state of clarity is still consciousness being the second moon. Let alone how is first moon clearly explained? 2) There is no explanation post enlightenment work or what enlightenment looks like. This goes for all Zen in East Asia even in Vietnam, China, Korea, etc. The original intention of Zen/Chan is to quickly produce enlightened beings, but that has become difficult. Enlightenment isn’t a place we want to go to but of course the choice to stay because of vows or just leave. Zen is still Mahayana a vehicle for many not just individual. I come off as disrespectful and offensive, but just to be clear people can strictly follow lineage of Zazen and that is introduced to Buddha nature and practice Zazen sitting. That’s cool.
This is the Soto Zen Section - so please show where "The Twelve Vows of the Medicine Buddha upon attaining Enlightenment" is mentioned anywhere in the Soto Zen literature.
..but just to be clear people can strictly follow lineage of Zazen and that is introduced to Buddha nature and practice Zazen sitting. That’s cool.
You indeed are very kind.
It’s rare now that meditation produces enlightened beings
How many of the teachers do you personally know, have met and spend time with to come this conclusion?
https://zenteachers.org/members-of-azta.html

fwiw: i have no idea who on this list is enlightened or not and i have met the majority of them.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by LastLegend »

HePo wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:45 pm

This is the Soto Zen Section - so please show where "The Twelve Vows of the Medicine Buddha upon attaining Enlightenment" is mentioned anywhere in the Soto Zen literature.
Feel free to ignore.

You indeed are very kind.
No. You are. I am the devil here.
How many of the teachers do you personally know, have met and spend time with to come this conclusion?
https://zenteachers.org/members-of-azta.html

fwiw: i have no idea who on this list is enlightened or not and i have met the majority of them.
They will need to tell you exactly what Buddha nature is and what enlightenment is based on their experience. And you need to know exactly what Buddha nature (enlightened nature) is in your experience in order to know whether their description of enlightenment is true!

I have met one.
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