Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
How would a Zen student find the proper teacher who can demonstrate the state in your mind?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
A friend of mine has studied Shikantaza for a year in a Japanese Soto-Zen monastery. When he started he already had several years of meditation experience. He told how his teacher would introduce him gradually to the practice, making corrections here and there over the whole duration of his stay in the monastery. So, if Shikantaza were something that everyone could just do from the start, why would that Zen teacher even have made all the efforts of telling the student to do this and not do that? Obviously, the teacher believed that there was value in the instructions given, otherwise he would have remained silent.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
It’s just karma that gives us problem.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Please consider carefully from which position and what point of view the zen masters utter these words, and where these masters come from to be able to say such words of deep wisdom! I guess their view and your view or understanding is quite different. Don't think about these things too much, but rather be humble and practice on your cushion instead. Maybe this will bring you closer to an understanding of what they mean. No offense intended!Dgj wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:41 pm
... it still seems paradoxical. Either everyone is Buddha nature, already enlightened, etc. Or they're not.
Broadly speaking, from the Mahayana perspective, we can have statements like this that are considered true:
... In Zen, enlightenment is instantaneous and innate. Per Shen Hui practice doesn't even make any sense (see the paper "The Problem of Practice in Shen Hui's Teaching of Sudden Enlightenment" by Hoyu Ishida). Since Shen Hui was articulating the Zen of Hui Neng, who all modern Zen traces their lineage to, and who was the true sixth patriarch and legitimate heir of Bodhidharma, this seems a relevant issue.
To say one must do a practice, and do it correctly no less, to see innate enlightenment appears counter intuitive and paradoxical.
In a non dual, all is Buddha, all is enlightened world, there truly would be nothing whatsoever to do, as articulated by many Zen masters. For example:
The master addressed the assembly, saying, “Followers of the Way, as to Buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do—defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.
-LinjiNow, of course many Zen masters also recommend some degree of practice. I'm merely illustrating the points that led to my question in the first place. It seemed to me that Dogen had answered this paradox of practicing to reach something you already have by delineating a Zazen that is not a practice at all. And if it's not a practice, but rather is simply our innate enlightenment, how can it be done wrong?My advice to you is, take a rest and have nothing to do. Even if that little blue-eyed barbarian, Bodhidharma, should come back here and now, he could only teach you to do nothing. Put on your clothes, eat your food, and move your bowels. That's all. No life-and-death [cycle] to fear. No transmigration to dread. No nirvana to achieve, and no bodhi to acquire. Just try to be an ordinary human being, having nothing to do.
- Hsuan Chien
Life is great and death has to be just as great as life.
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People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Dgj wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:41 pmThe worldly passions are precisely enlightenment
Birth and death are precisely nirvana.
-Stone, Jacqueline (1 May 1995). "Medieval Tendai hongaku thought and the new Kamakura Buddhism: A reconsideration". Japanese Journal of Religious Studies
yes you will find in zen teachings same statements
but they are spoken from the point of realized
there is clear distinction
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Thanks.
Zen is highly variegated and so one master's teaching may be very different from another. Are there examples where the very masters who taught specifically that practice is pointless or unnecessary further explain that the opposite of their statements is the true situation? And where they specify which teaching is the correct one to avoid cancelling out both teachings?
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.
"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
IDK which of them say practice is unnecessary?
I mean if you read the Bloodstream Sermon (or something more recent) you might get this idea, but I think if you read between the lines (especially with Zen writing and it's seeming revelry in contradiction here and there) what they are really saying is that the best practice involves no practice, in that concerted effort only goes so far.
Like I if I told you "just try to relax", the trying actually precludes what I am asking you to do. but it doesn't mean you can just be liberated by apathy.
This is how I learned Zazen personally, very little instruction, and that itself is sort of the primary instruction. I don't doubt this is non-standard.
I mean if you read the Bloodstream Sermon (or something more recent) you might get this idea, but I think if you read between the lines (especially with Zen writing and it's seeming revelry in contradiction here and there) what they are really saying is that the best practice involves no practice, in that concerted effort only goes so far.
Like I if I told you "just try to relax", the trying actually precludes what I am asking you to do. but it doesn't mean you can just be liberated by apathy.
This is how I learned Zazen personally, very little instruction, and that itself is sort of the primary instruction. I don't doubt this is non-standard.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
The idea of buddha-nature doesn't necessarily change anything in terms of practice, and one can still see the twofold accumulation through immeasurable aeons as the way to perfect enlightenment.
When there is talk of enlightenment it is important to look at the word used. For instance wu 悟 can simply mean understanding and puti 菩提 the initial awakening. They are the first steps on the bodhisattva path, and not buddhahood. So when there is a peculiar line from the teacher and the student suddenly understands, that is basically when something clicks and becomes clear. It's not that they're buddhas right there, or even arya bodhisattvas.In Zen, enlightenment is instantaneous and innate.
Not really. Guifeng Zongmi claimed to be an heir of Heze and he clearly taught the path of sudden enlightenment, gradual practice. Later Yongming Yanshou and Bojo Jinul followed the same interpretation. You may want to look into Buswell's introduction in Numinous Awareness Is Never Dark where he summarises the matter nicely. Also, if you want to find a more detailed explanation of Zen in more standard writing - and not just short koan-style anecdotes and phrases - you should look into this part of Zen that took a different route than the Hongzhou school what became popular in the Song era and was followed by the majority of Linji and Caodong teachers.Per Shen Hui practice doesn't even make any sense
As I take it, Dogen was more a subitist than those who advocated kanhua practice, as he followed more closely the view what one finds in the Platform Sutra where a moment of no-thought is a moment of buddhahood (see also: Enlightenment in Dōgen's Zen by Francis H. Cook ). Or we could say he was more optimist, believing that people can simply enter no-thought (or non-thinking). Then it is only a matter of familiarisation with dropping body and mind, or as they put it now: "The essential thing in doing zazen is to awaken (kakusoku) from distraction and dullness, and return to the right posture moment by moment."It seemed to me that Dogen had answered this paradox of practicing to reach something you already have by delineating a Zazen that is not a practice at all. And if it's not a practice, but rather is simply our innate enlightenment, how can it be done wrong?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
It’s what clearly and without mistake that operates. Walking raising hands etc. It’s not a particular Dharma (to design). Call it unborn wisdom if you will. You don’t care what it is .
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
When just sitting, the point is to recognize this wisdom through six faculties. If you get caught up with views and interpretations on and on and on that’s karma. Karma is what repeats itself on and on non-stop. Very little Dharma other than that unborn wisdom (no dharma unborn wisdom has no such thing, no self because unborn wisdom has no such thing either). Completely empty (not quite because we are still stuck somewhere probably because of consciousness). But Linjii said ‘don’t remember any of my word’ because that’s where your teacher’s words will tie you. Then from here/unborn wisdom the real work begins and it depends on your teacher. Some teacher will instruct you to transform karma and nurture good thoughts for benefits of others. And when you are completely awakened with no mistake left then you can transform a storm from hitting or a wild fire. This is where you walk the path of Bodhisattva officially given you have made great vows such vows you don’t have to be witnessed by anyone like Amitabha’s vows make like that don’t have to tell anyone. But we don’t try to transform anything while still have mistake of self left it will create harm and such self will blow up you will become Mara.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
All texts and mahaprajnaparamita sutras are nothing more than that unborn nature/wisdom. But it’s very ordinary nothing special about it that’s where people leave and don’t have instruction to move forward!
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Views and interpretations are hindrance the house of Buddhas has many unlearned/stooges who know very little.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:46 am IDK which of them say practice is unnecessary?
I mean if you read the Bloodstream Sermon (or something more recent) you might get this idea, but I think if you read between the lines (especially with Zen writing and it's seeming revelry in contradiction here and there) what they are really saying is that the best practice involves no practice, in that concerted effort only goes so far.
Like I if I told you "just try to relax", the trying actually precludes what I am asking you to do. but it doesn't mean you can just be liberated by apathy.
This is how I learned Zazen personally, very little instruction, and that itself is sort of the primary instruction. I don't doubt this is non-standard.
Thanks. Both of these quotes seem pretty specific. They say to have nothing to do, but they also describe what this entails. No meditation or other seeking practices are mentioned. In the Hsuan Chien quote he even specifies why there's nothing to do by stating that the very issues usually seen as solved by practice do not exist.
So this would be like if you told me to relax and then specifically how to do so and implied what not to do.
Like if I was known to avoid walking under ladders to avoid bad luck and you said "relax, walk normally, there's no bad luck to avoid."
The master addressed the assembly, saying, “Followers of the Way, as to Buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do—defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.
-Linji
My advice to you is, take a rest and have nothing to do. Even if that little blue-eyed barbarian, Bodhidharma, should come back here and now, he could only teach you to do nothing. Put on your clothes, eat your food, and move your bowels. That's all. No life-and-death [cycle] to fear. No transmigration to dread. No nirvana to achieve, and no bodhi to acquire. Just try to be an ordinary human being, having nothing to do.
- Hsuan Chien
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.
"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
For the most part, in Soto literature, a wandering and unfocussed sitting practice is discouraged. Calling it "wrong" or "not really zazen" or labeling it otherwise don't help in any way, so I won't call it "wrong" but "automatically successful" only applies if a sincere right effort is applied.
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Yes, and this is Koan of sitting practice Shikantaza. Yes. On the other hand, goal oriented in attaining by concentrating and focusing or posture and "doing perfect right" is also missing Shikantaza. That is not right. Shikantaza is sincere and settled sitting which is free of all goals and discriminating right-wrong.kusulu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:39 pm For the most part, in Soto literature, a wandering and unfocussed sitting practice is discouraged. Calling it "wrong" or "not really zazen" or labeling it otherwise don't help in any way, so I won't call it "wrong" but "automatically successful" only applies if a sincere right effort is applied.
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
What is sincerity in the absence of goals and discrimination. In a sense I agree with your statement but am wondering what sincere shikantaza is in practice. How can one recognize in oneself an absence of goals, discrimination?
Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
When one is action for sake of action with nothing in the world but this action, nothing more to attain but this action and nothing miss from this action. Action is complete. There is no before or after the action when acting the action. This action is the only action to act in the world when acting the action. The goal of the action is the action, and the attaining of goal of the action is just the acting the action without any other acttion required. Action is Buddha acting.
I feel it is experience, so when encountered, proof is in the pudding. Acction can be sitting, or walking, climbing mountain, cooking for Tenzo. They seem to all have goals, but that is not only way to awareness each action.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Even if someone told you, you would still have to discover the truth in it. Only you will know if it is sincere, without goal, or part of discrimination mind. "Proof is in the pudding" so to speak. There's lots of various reasons why some become attached to goals and agendas.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:46 am Like I if I told you "just try to relax", the trying actually precludes what I am asking you to do. but it doesn't mean you can just be liberated by apathy.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Clear through six faculties. It’s not any thing in particular. It’s described as non-appearance and empty. What gives us problem is karmic habits of skandhas.Justmeagain wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 8:11 amJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:46 am Like I if I told you "just try to relax", the trying actually precludes what I am asking you to do. but it doesn't mean you can just be liberated by apathy.
It’s eye blinking.