Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Dgj
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Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Compare for example jhana, which has specific factors which need to be present and others that cannot be present to be defined as having entered jhana.

Is Shikantaza like this? Or, since we are already enlightened and it is the Dharma gate of joyful ease, is it always successful Shikantaza?

Does what applies to Shikantaza also apply to Zazen?

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort?

...

Zazen is not a meditation technique. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease; it is practicing the realization of the boundless dharma way. Here, the open mystery manifests, and there are no more traps and snares for you to get caught in.

-Dogen, Fukan Zazengi
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by LastLegend »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am Compare for example jhana, which has specific factors which need to be present and others that cannot be present to be defined as having entered jhana.

Is Shikantaza like this? Or, since we are already enlightened and it is the Dharma gate of joyful ease, is it always successful Shikantaza?

Does what applies to Shikantaza also apply to Zazen?

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort?

...

Zazen is not a meditation technique. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease; it is practicing the realization of the boundless dharma way. Here, the open mystery manifests, and there are no more traps and snares for you to get caught in.

-Dogen, Fukan Zazengi
That would be an introduction to nature? But hell the karma of just studying Dharma alone can already give us problems! So yes there is practice but this is skillful. Linjii has a similar saying along the line, ‘I know very little Buddhism. I have no Dharma for you.’
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by LastLegend »

It’s a matter of fully present whether awake or sleeping. Now sleeping and still present that’s a yummy sign. But we don’t try to be present during sleep I mean there might be practice for such. I am still deluded personally by my dreams.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by LastLegend »

The story goes a man Linjii came to ask his teacher a question the ultimate meaning of Buddhadharma after years of practicing and studying and he received 3 stick of beating, and he cried and confused. The same man is then enlightened a few days later when he was sent to see another teacher. So enlightenment is not limited to sitting meditation. In fact, that’s more rare.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am Compare for example jhana, which has specific factors which need to be present and others that cannot be present to be defined as having entered jhana.

Is Shikantaza like this? Or, since we are already enlightened and it is the Dharma gate of joyful ease, is it always successful Shikantaza?

Does what applies to Shikantaza also apply to Zazen?

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort?

...

Zazen is not a meditation technique. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease; it is practicing the realization of the boundless dharma way. Here, the open mystery manifests, and there are no more traps and snares for you to get caught in.

-Dogen, Fukan Zazengi
You could just be sitting there in dullness while stuff is kind of running the background, like a river underground if I remember the analogy.. The more concepts, the more effort involved, the more you are trying to make or do stuff, the less likely it is Shikantaza.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Wayfarer »

Even though 'shikantaza' is said to be 'just sitting', in practice, it takes place in a highly formalised setting, in which it is integrated with monastic rules and commitment to both Buddhist principles and (usually) undertaking of pretty rigorous work. So it's not a matter of doing it rightly or wrongly, but recognising meditation as one element in the eightfold path, and integrating it through practice and culture with the rest of one's existence - which is not a trivial undertaking.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:25 am
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am Compare for example jhana, which has specific factors which need to be present and others that cannot be present to be defined as having entered jhana.

Is Shikantaza like this? Or, since we are already enlightened and it is the Dharma gate of joyful ease, is it always successful Shikantaza?

Does what applies to Shikantaza also apply to Zazen?

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort?

...

Zazen is not a meditation technique. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease; it is practicing the realization of the boundless dharma way. Here, the open mystery manifests, and there are no more traps and snares for you to get caught in.

-Dogen, Fukan Zazengi
You could just be sitting there in dullness while stuff is kind of running the background, like a river underground if I remember the analogy.. The more concepts, the more effort involved, the more you are trying to make or do stuff, the less likely it is Shikantaza.
Thanks. So you're saying you cannot do it wrong? Or that thinking a lot about concepts would be doing it wrong?
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Wayfarer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:48 am Even though 'shikantaza' is said to be 'just sitting', in practice, it takes place in a highly formalised setting, in which it is integrated with monastic rules and commitment to both Buddhist principles and (usually) undertaking of pretty rigorous work. So it's not a matter of doing it rightly or wrongly, but recognising meditation as one element in the eightfold path, and integrating it through practice and culture with the rest of one's existence - which is not a trivial undertaking.
Thank you. So you can do it wrong if the outward setting and rules is wrong? What about if all of that you mentioned is done perfectly? Does it matter what goes on inside the meditator during this or can that be done wrong too?
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Meido »

Strictly speaking, shikantaza is not so much a method as a fruition. It is the seamless embodiment of awakening. If we call it a practice, we have to at least say that it is a practice taking awakening as its basis. This is why Dogen could say that practice and the confirmation of practice are the same thing. It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state. You can read about hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) if you want.

That being said, lots of people do practice a method they call "shikantaza." This is a way of speaking for beginners. You will hear various instructions for this depending on where you go, some of which in fact begin with something else (like susokukan, breath counting) in order to cultivate necessary conditions. So yes, in the realm of practice like that, it is very much the case that one can do it wrong or be mistaken; there are certainly signs of fruition; and there is nothing that is automatically successful.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by reiun »

Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm Strictly speaking, shikantaza is not so much a method as a fruition. It is the seamless embodiment of awakening. If we call it a practice, we have to at least say that it is a practice taking awakening as its basis. This is why Dogen could say that practice and the confirmation of practice are the same thing. It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state. You can read about hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) if you want.

That being said, lots of people do practice a method they call "shikantaza." This is a way of speaking for beginners. You will hear various instructions for this depending on where you go, some of which in fact begin with something else (like susokukan, breath counting) in order to cultivate necessary conditions. So yes, in the realm of practice like that, it is very much the case that one can do it wrong or be mistaken; there are certainly signs of fruition; and there is nothing that is automatically successful.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Malcolm »

Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state.
Excellent post.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm Strictly speaking, shikantaza is not so much a method as a fruition. It is the seamless embodiment of awakening. If we call it a practice, we have to at least say that it is a practice taking awakening as its basis. This is why Dogen could say that practice and the confirmation of practice are the same thing. It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state. You can read about hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) if you want.

That being said, lots of people do practice a method they call "shikantaza." This is a way of speaking for beginners. You will hear various instructions for this depending on where you go, some of which in fact begin with something else (like susokukan, breath counting) in order to cultivate necessary conditions. So yes, in the realm of practice like that, it is very much the case that one can do it wrong or be mistaken; there are certainly signs of fruition; and there is nothing that is automatically successful.
So Shikantaza cannot be done wrong, but "Shikantaza" can. Makes sense. Thank you.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by kusulu »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:05 pm
Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm Strictly speaking, shikantaza is not so much a method as a fruition. It is the seamless embodiment of awakening. If we call it a practice, we have to at least say that it is a practice taking awakening as its basis. This is why Dogen could say that practice and the confirmation of practice are the same thing. It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state. You can read about hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) if you want.

That being said, lots of people do practice a method they call "shikantaza." This is a way of speaking for beginners. You will hear various instructions for this depending on where you go, some of which in fact begin with something else (like susokukan, breath counting) in order to cultivate necessary conditions. So yes, in the realm of practice like that, it is very much the case that one can do it wrong or be mistaken; there are certainly signs of fruition; and there is nothing that is automatically successful.
So Shikantaza cannot be done wrong, but "Shikantaza" can. Makes sense. Thank you.
Nobody in the know would call a thing "zazen" that isn't zazen. It is a practice with several aspects, sitting in a certain way is one of them. In the Theravada practice of anapanasati or satipatanna, one may, or may not, sit in in specific manner. You could do it behind the wheel of a large automobile, for example. But generally, the practice "zazen", describing it that way, is generally meant a specific type of sitting. At our local kendo there is a chart on the wall of different sitting styles and mudras that are deemed as suggested in the group setting, for example. Zazen is generally the name given to the Zen instruction passed down through lineage. Anyone could pick up a Sutta practice out of the book and start doing it. It is open source. But zazen practice is usually part of a community, although there is plenty of solo practice in that context. If you are thinking of just a solo practice of shikantaza I won't say it is impossible to do. Nothing is really going to replace a teacher and a sangha however.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

kusulu wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:34 pm
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:05 pm
Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm Strictly speaking, shikantaza is not so much a method as a fruition. It is the seamless embodiment of awakening. If we call it a practice, we have to at least say that it is a practice taking awakening as its basis. This is why Dogen could say that practice and the confirmation of practice are the same thing. It needs to be grasped under a teacher who can demonstrate that state. You can read about hokkyo zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) if you want.

That being said, lots of people do practice a method they call "shikantaza." This is a way of speaking for beginners. You will hear various instructions for this depending on where you go, some of which in fact begin with something else (like susokukan, breath counting) in order to cultivate necessary conditions. So yes, in the realm of practice like that, it is very much the case that one can do it wrong or be mistaken; there are certainly signs of fruition; and there is nothing that is automatically successful.
So Shikantaza cannot be done wrong, but "Shikantaza" can. Makes sense. Thank you.
Nobody in the know would call a thing "zazen" that isn't zazen. It is a practice with several aspects, sitting in a certain way is one of them. In the Theravada practice of anapanasati or satipatanna, one may, or may not, sit in in specific manner. You could do it behind the wheel of a large automobile, for example. But generally, the practice "zazen", describing it that way, is generally meant a specific type of sitting. At our local kendo there is a chart on the wall of different sitting styles and mudras that are deemed as suggested in the group setting, for example. Zazen is generally the name given to the Zen instruction passed down through lineage. Anyone could pick up a Sutta practice out of the book and start doing it. It is open source. But zazen practice is usually part of a community, although there is plenty of solo practice in that context. If you are thinking of just a solo practice of shikantaza I won't say it is impossible to do. Nothing is really going to replace a teacher and a sangha however.
Here a Bhikkhu, having gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, sits down, having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.

-Anapanasati sutta and Satipatthana sutta
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:10 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:25 am
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am Compare for example jhana, which has specific factors which need to be present and others that cannot be present to be defined as having entered jhana.

Is Shikantaza like this? Or, since we are already enlightened and it is the Dharma gate of joyful ease, is it always successful Shikantaza?

Does what applies to Shikantaza also apply to Zazen?

You could just be sitting there in dullness while stuff is kind of running the background, like a river underground if I remember the analogy.. The more concepts, the more effort involved, the more you are trying to make or do stuff, the less likely it is Shikantaza.
Thanks. So you're saying you cannot do it wrong? Or that thinking a lot about concepts would be doing it wrong?
You can do it wrong I think..but it's a "subtractive" thing, you cannot really "do it right" either because actually doing it right involves no effort or desire for a result. Confusing, but this is m y understanding of it. I think that really a person needs a teacher to direct us for this, because it is very hard to verify this kind of thing for ourselves, it has to be pointed out to us.

Also to be fair, I have not been involved in Zen for years and am speaking mainly from a Tibetan context and "plugging in" where maybe I shouldn't be.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:53 pm
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:10 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:25 am

You could just be sitting there in dullness while stuff is kind of running the background, like a river underground if I remember the analogy.. The more concepts, the more effort involved, the more you are trying to make or do stuff, the less likely it is Shikantaza.
Thanks. So you're saying you cannot do it wrong? Or that thinking a lot about concepts would be doing it wrong?
You can do it wrong I think..but it's a "subtractive" thing, you cannot really "do it right" either because actually doing it right involves no effort or desire for a result. Confusing, but this is m y understanding of it. I think that really a person needs a teacher to direct us for this, because it is very hard to verify this kind of thing for ourselves, it has to be pointed out to us.

Also to be fair, I have not been involved in Zen for years and am speaking mainly from a Tibetan context and "plugging in" where maybe I shouldn't be.
Thanks.

Makes sense to me.

It seems a bit difficult. On the one hand it is enlightenment itself. We are already enlightened, so of course it cannot be done wrong. On the other it is a practice and from that perspective naturally there is a right way to do it.

If we accept innate enlightenment as fact then the whole discussion is moot when you really think about it. Technically so is all practice. As Dogen noted
As I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages — undoubtedly in possession of enlightenment — find it necessary to seek enlightenment and engage in spiritual practice?
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Meido »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:52 pm If we accept innate enlightenment as fact then the whole discussion is moot when you really think about it. Technically so is all practice. As Dogen noted
As I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages — undoubtedly in possession of enlightenment — find it necessary to seek enlightenment and engage in spiritual practice?
Innate does not = actualized.

Dogen's words that you quote here are precisely the question that drove him to practice so intensely, awaken to his nature, and promulgate Zen teachings in Japan. The answer to that burning question at which he arrived has already been mentioned: shusho ichinyo 修証一如, "Practice and [its] confirmation/proof are one." In other words: although each of us is indeed endowed with the dharmakaya wisdom, lacking nothing that must be sought elsewhere, in fact it is practice that confirms or proves this.

A dharma friend elsewhere has expressed this in a more colloquial manner: "The proof is in the pudding."

That is a theoretical way to describe it. From the standpoint of practice itself, I described it in my post above: practice and its confirmation are one because genuine practice is itself the embodied manifestation of awakening.

I believe that a poor translation of shusho ichinyo often seen in the west - "Practice IS enlightenment!" - is the cause of much confusion. Practice is certainly not moot. It is rather something at which it is entirely possible to fail, thus wasting one's precious human life. Dogen's own practice, and his concern with his student's practice, demonstrate that he certainly did not think it moot or useless.

The state of "all is practice" exists for the person who has in fact actualized the state of effortless, all-is-practice. But for someone who has not, such sayings are useless at best, and at worst can lead one down false paths into a kind of conceptual pollyanna-ism ("everything is fine as it is, no need to do anything"), dead practice absent signs of fruition ("just sit there"), or nihilism ("nothing can be accomplished anyway"). A good teacher is crucial for all these reasons, and will ensure that the student does not confuse talk of "non-seeking" with having no aspiration, vows, and intent.

As I am a Rinzai Zen practitioner it's perhaps unseemly for me to go on like this in the Soto forum, so I'll stop (and it may be not all Soto folks will agree with what I've written here). Anyway, there are certainly misunderstandings of Rinzai practice as well that are just as common.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

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There is not an all size fit all that means it’s quite rare to see an actual 10th blumi.
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Matylda »

yes shikan taza could be done wrong, no question or doubt about it.

What Meido Roshi kindly explained is indeed true and correct.

One should be well versed in Fukanzazengi, since it explains the whole matter.

For more detailed explanation one may read and receive proper instructions in Zazen yojinki by Keizan Zenji.

Fukan zazengi has very clear strucure, it starts with basic DO MOTO ENZU, and is alternated by instruction which are relative on how to practice zazen correctly.

As said before poor translation and poor interpretation of Shu/Sho as practice is enlightenment leads to wrong practice of zazen, which is lifeless, fruitless and far from Shu/Shoo in fact. One may simply misunderstand that sitting in zazen IS satori itself. Then what to do? This is simply nihilistic view
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Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?

Post by Dgj »

Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:37 pm
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:52 pm If we accept innate enlightenment as fact then the whole discussion is moot when you really think about it. Technically so is all practice. As Dogen noted
As I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages — undoubtedly in possession of enlightenment — find it necessary to seek enlightenment and engage in spiritual practice?
Innate does not = actualized.

Dogen's words that you quote here are precisely the question that drove him to practice so intensely, awaken to his nature, and promulgate Zen teachings in Japan. The answer to that burning question at which he arrived has already been mentioned: shusho ichinyo 修証一如, "Practice and [its] confirmation/proof are one." In other words: although each of us is indeed endowed with the dharmakaya wisdom, lacking nothing that must be sought elsewhere, in fact it is practice that confirms or proves this.

A dharma friend elsewhere has expressed this in a more colloquial manner: "The proof is in the pudding."

That is a theoretical way to describe it. From the standpoint of practice itself, I described it in my post above: practice and its confirmation are one because genuine practice is itself the embodied manifestation of awakening.

I believe that a poor translation of shusho ichinyo often seen in the west - "Practice IS enlightenment!" - is the cause of much confusion. Practice is certainly not moot. It is rather something at which it is entirely possible to fail, thus wasting one's precious human life. Dogen's own practice, and his concern with his student's practice, demonstrate that he certainly did not think it moot or useless.

The state of "all is practice" exists for the person who has in fact actualized the state of effortless, all-is-practice. But for someone who has not, such sayings are useless at best, and at worst can lead one down false paths into a kind of conceptual pollyanna-ism ("everything is fine as it is, no need to do anything"), dead practice absent signs of fruition ("just sit there"), or nihilism ("nothing can be accomplished anyway"). A good teacher is crucial for all these reasons, and will ensure that the student does not confuse talk of "non-seeking" with having no aspiration, vows, and intent.

As I am a Rinzai Zen practitioner it's perhaps unseemly for me to go on like this in the Soto forum, so I'll stop (and it may be not all Soto folks will agree with what I've written here). Anyway, there are certainly misunderstandings of Rinzai practice as well that are just as common.
Matylda wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:15 am yes shikan taza could be done wrong, no question or doubt about it.

What Meido Roshi kindly explained is indeed true and correct.

One should be well versed in Fukanzazengi, since it explains the whole matter.

For more detailed explanation one may read and receive proper instructions in Zazen yojinki by Keizan Zenji.

Fukan zazengi has very clear strucure, it starts with basic DO MOTO ENZU, and is alternated by instruction which are relative on how to practice zazen correctly.

As said before poor translation and poor interpretation of Shu/Sho as practice is enlightenment leads to wrong practice of zazen, which is lifeless, fruitless and far from Shu/Shoo in fact. One may simply misunderstand that sitting in zazen IS satori itself. Then what to do? This is simply nihilistic view


Thank you. I understand your points and it seems you are stating what is true according to Zen doctrine. I am clearly the one with lack of understanding so I'm not trying to argue lol!

That said, it still seems paradoxical. Either everyone is Buddha nature, already enlightened, etc. Or they're not.

Broadly speaking, from the Mahayana perspective, we can have statements like this that are considered true:
The worldly passions are precisely enlightenment

Birth and death are precisely nirvana.

-Stone, Jacqueline (1 May 1995). "Medieval Tendai hongaku thought and the new Kamakura Buddhism: A reconsideration". Japanese Journal of Religious Studies

To dial it back seems to create some problems and once we're there we may as well go back to the Theravada understanding where enlightenment must be reached through practice precisely because it is not innate.

In Zen, enlightenment is instantaneous and innate. Per Shen Hui practice doesn't even make any sense (see the paper "The Problem of Practice in Shen Hui's Teaching of Sudden Enlightenment" by Hoyu Ishida). Since Shen Hui was articulating the Zen of Hui Neng, who all modern Zen traces their lineage to, and who was the true sixth patriarch and legitimate heir of Bodhidharma, this seems a relevant issue.

To say one must do a practice, and do it correctly no less, to see innate enlightenment appears counter intuitive and paradoxical.

In a non dual, all is Buddha, all is enlightened world, there truly would be nothing whatsoever to do, as articulated by many Zen masters. For example:

The master addressed the assembly, saying, “Followers of the Way, as to Buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do—defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.
-Linji
My advice to you is, take a rest and have nothing to do. Even if that little blue-eyed barbarian, Bodhidharma, should come back here and now, he could only teach you to do nothing. Put on your clothes, eat your food, and move your bowels. That's all. No life-and-death [cycle] to fear. No transmigration to dread. No nirvana to achieve, and no bodhi to acquire. Just try to be an ordinary human being, having nothing to do.
- Hsuan Chien
Now, of course many Zen masters also recommend some degree of practice. I'm merely illustrating the points that led to my question in the first place. It seemed to me that Dogen had answered this paradox of practicing to reach something you already have by delineating a Zazen that is not a practice at all. And if it's not a practice, but rather is simply our innate enlightenment, how can it be done wrong?
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
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