LastLegend wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 pm
It’s rare now that meditation produces enlightened beings: 1) Buddha nature is not explained clearly and most of us today don’t even know that this state of clarity is still consciousness being the second moon. Let alone how is first moon clearly explained? 2) There is no explanation post enlightenment work or what enlightenment looks like. This goes for all Zen in East Asia even in Vietnam, China, Korea, etc. The original intention of Zen/Chan is to quickly produce enlightened beings, but that has become difficult. Enlightenment isn’t a place we want to go to but of course the choice to stay because of vows or just leave. Zen is still Mahayana a vehicle for many not just individual. I come off as disrespectful and offensive, but just to be clear people can strictly follow lineage of Zazen and that is introduced to Buddha nature and practice Zazen sitting. That’s cool.
You do not come across as disrespectful and offensive. Just confusing, and prone to generalization in a manner I find puzzling. As to your points:
1) Buddha nature is not explained clearly and most of us today don’t even know that this state of clarity is still consciousness being the second moon. Let alone how is first moon clearly explained?
What is signified by one's "nature" is indeed explained quite clearly in Chan/Zen teaching. Such explanations rest upon and serve to explicate experiential, rather than intellectual, grasp of the essential point, and are given by a teacher who can demonstrate or manifest that understanding. I do not say such teachers are common anywhere. But since one relies upon one's teacher as the foundation of practice anyway, it is hardly something about which to make sweeping statements outside the context of that relationship, or expect to talk about in a place like this except in the most general terms.
I am not sure what you mean by first and second moons.
2) There is no explanation post enlightenment work or what enlightenment looks like. This goes for all Zen in East Asia even in Vietnam, China, Korea, etc.
Post-kensho practice is quite precisely explained, as is its fruition. On the Rinzai Zen side, basically pick up any text at all, since it is the main subject about which all the great masters were deeply concerned and for which the broke their bones in practice (see the quote in my signature for one such master, who wrote about it extensively).
The original intention of Zen/Chan is to quickly produce enlightened beings, but that has become difficult. Enlightenment isn’t a place we want to go to but of course the choice to stay because of vows or just leave.
I have no idea what you are saying here. The intention of Zen is liberation. It has always been difficult, in one sense. If you are lamenting that there are not many deeply realized people in the modern era, that is fine. But the correct response to such feeling is to resolve to become deeply realized oneself, abandon pointless activities, and then set about doing so with all one's energy. Posting here may not be the optimal use of one's time, if one is so determined (a critique I share for myself).
It does seem, though, that we have veered far off topic.