If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by desert_woodworker »

Mod note: Because of necroing the topic has been split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 83#p483083



Not solipsistic, really, because if there is just One Mind, well, there's no other mind, actual or hypothetical, to be solipsistic against.

But the fact of One Mind and one mind only is not evident AT ALL until one awakens. At (after) which time, categories, such as we're dealing in here, are dust in the wind. "Gone, gone, gone 'beyond' ".

In my old early 1970s Philosophy department, we had a joke as students: "Are YOU the Solipsist responsible for all this?" ;)

Not monistic, because, again, the fact of the One Mind (of no-mind) that is revealed and liberated at awakening is a fact that is outside the dualism of monistic or not-so, ...which are distinctions only possible to make with a dualistic mind. That mind dies at awakening! Make no mistake about that. And, don't wish for it unless you think "you" can withstand that death.

But... it may revive again! That false-mind. The awakened state may erode if not cared-for. Thus, one must never suspend or deprecate "practice", after awakening. See your teacher!

"The Three Poisons Rise Endlessly", e.g.

Best,

Good to be on board,

--Joe
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Because mind is neither one nor many.... it is neither singular nor plural, and is devoid of creation, cessation and existence, to paraphrase a source.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Malcolm »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:14 pm
But the fact of One Mind and one mind only is not evident AT ALL until one awakens.
How would you know this? Are you awakened?
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Welcome to the board, Joe!

:anjali:
desert_woodworker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:14 pm Not solipsistic, really, because if there is just One Mind, well, there's no other mind, actual or hypothetical, to be solipsistic against.
I don't think that's what "one mind" means... It's not about "only one mind exists," it's about the state of your mind.

一心不亂 "One mind, not in disarray." "One mind, no chaos."
一心不二 "One mind, not two." "One mind, nondual."
歸本一心 "Returning to the root, One mind." "Return to the nature, one mind."

In my memory, 一心 "one mind" is often contrasted with 二心 "two mind" or 分心 "split mind," "scattered mind," "distracted mind."
It seems pretty clear "one mind" has something to do with a state of samadhi.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by SilenceMonkey »

And then there's 唯心 “Mind only."

Maybe that's what we're talking about in this thread... My mistake.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once, so we may see that we have not been lied to by Buddhas and Ancestors. Hakuin reputedly had multiple awakenings, and we know that multiple awakenings are possible. But so is at least one.

Funny, how some people profess to be zen practitioners, where awakening is a summum bonum, which opens the heart of true compassion (karuna) and true wisdom (prajna), yet don't believe that it is possible. Perhaps, for them, it presents an impossibility. I hope not!

--Joe
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:51 am
desert_woodworker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:14 pm
But the fact of One Mind and one mind only is not evident AT ALL until one awakens.
How would you know this? Are you awakened?
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by desert_woodworker »

Hi, SM,

No, I don't bring in Mind-Only, but I speak of the one mind... the mind of no mind. Thanks for the careful translations and going to the Chinese, much appreciated.

And so I say, for the mind of no mind, Ch'an/Zen, its ways, its practice, and its life in one who has awakened, is not monistic, because such categories are only entertainable by a mind that can deal in dualisms. Whereas... the mind of no mind cannot do that, because, for the mind of no mind, there is no dualism anywhere.

Perhaps I'm errant not to address more directly the question in the OP: "If all is mind...", etc.. But, I don't claim all is mind. I'd claim instead that there is no mind. In one who is awake. So, the question is moot. All is not mind. It's thus a malformed, malposed question. But at least it starts with "If". ;-)

When people speak of mind, I think they refer to motions, movements of mind, instead (illusions), since mind, anyway, is never and has never been a "thing". In one who is awake, there is no movement, neither inwardly or outwardly, and, well, even inward and outward are specious categories, irrelevant to one's experience, and they do not arise because they have nothing to refer to.

Again, thanks,

--Joe

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:21 am And then there's 唯心 “Mind only."

Maybe that's what we're talking about in this thread... My mistake.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by SilenceMonkey »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:14 pm Not solipsistic, really, because if there is just One Mind, well, there's no other mind, actual or hypothetical, to be solipsistic against.
desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:25 am Hi, SM,

No, I don't bring in Mind-Only, but I speak of the one mind... the mind of no mind. Thanks for the careful translations and going to the Chinese, much appreciated.

And so I say, for the mind of no mind, Ch'an/Zen, its ways, its practice, and its life in one who has awakened, is not monistic, because such categories are only entertainable by a mind that can deal in dualisms. Whereas... the mind of no mind cannot do that, because, for the mind of no mind, there is no dualism anywhere.

Perhaps I'm errant not to address more directly the question in the OP: "If all is mind...", etc.. But, I don't claim all is mind. I'd claim instead that there is no mind. In one who is awake. So, the question is moot. All is not mind. It's thus a malformed, malposed question. But at least it starts with "If". ;-)

When people speak of mind, I think they refer to motions, movements of mind, instead (illusions), since mind, anyway, is never and has never been a "thing". In one who is awake, there is no movement, neither inwardly or outwardly, and, well, even inward and outward are specious categories, irrelevant to one's experience, and they do not arise because they have nothing to refer to.

Again, thanks,

--Joe
Wonderful explanation. Wonderful to hear your perspective.

:anjali:
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Malcolm »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once...
I think we have a different understanding of bodhi. It happens once.

Prior to that we can have experiences known as "peaks" which resemble awakening, but they are not actually awakening, because they are still conceptual.

Anyway, this is the Chan forum, so I will leave it here.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by desert_woodworker »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:08 am Welcome to the board, Joe!
.
.
.
In my memory, 一心 "one mind" is often contrasted with 二心 "two mind" or 分心 "split mind," "scattered mind," "distracted mind."
It seems pretty clear "one mind" has something to do with a state of samadhi.
Thanks!, good to be on board.

My teacher Sheng Yen had a brief way of describing the logic or progress (progression) of Ch'an practice. He'd include this in his talks on each and every retreat. He'd say that: at first, there is "Scattered mind"; then, "Unified (one-) mind"; then, "No mind".

Wonderful.

I hope I'm still on topic. I bring in the development to the revelation or opening to No-mind in a practitioner in order to, 1.) discredit the idea that "all is mind", from a Ch'an or Zen awakened state point of view, in the first place, and, 2.) to claim that dualistic philosophical categories such as "Monism" do not apply to the No-mind, since it has no dualistic properties, aspects, or identity with dualism.

For me, then, the Q. in the OP falls to the ground. But there may still be some juice in side-issues that come up in discussion of it (we count our blessings and are grateful for them). :)

--Joe
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:51 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once...
I think we have a different understanding of bodhi. It happens once.

Prior to that we can have experiences known as "peaks" which resemble awakening, but they are not actually awakening, because they are still conceptual.

Anyway, this is the Chan forum, so I will leave it here.
Thanks, Malcolm. I hope you'll please post more about this, and your certainty about bodhi happening once, please. I think you mean only once.

I didn't bring in bodhi, but spoke (and do speak) of true wisdom (prajna), which I note arises spontaneously and in seamless accord with conditions and events just as they arise or occur, and our response is immediate and unmediated, simultaneously with the operation of true compassion (karuna) in our action or response. This is in everyday life, when one is awake.

Now, awakenings occur, and one has this opening of/to spontaneous true wisdom and true compassion, on a daily and continuing basis, for some time. When one is not blessed with these -- say, when the awakened state is no longer supported by the eight elements that one has developed within the eightfold-path -- and hence the awakened state has submerged again, eroded, evaporated -- one is then an ordinary deluded being, again (even if with a memory of "the way things 'really' are", as obvious in the awakened state).

I'd appreciate knowing how you will expand on the notion and understanding of bodhi, as distinct (if distinct... ) from prajna which arises naturally and unbidden in the awakened state.

I'm not sure this is the thread in which to do it. I'm new at the board, and perhaps you feel it would be better to begin a new and dedicated thread along the lines you envision which could address these things. Thank you!, very much.

--Joe
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Malcolm »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:51 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once...
I think we have a different understanding of bodhi. It happens once.

Prior to that we can have experiences known as "peaks" which resemble awakening, but they are not actually awakening, because they are still conceptual.

Anyway, this is the Chan forum, so I will leave it here.
Thanks, Malcolm. I hope you'll please post more about this, and your certainty about bodhi happening once, please. I think you mean only once.
Yes, just once.


I didn't bring in bodhi, but spoke (and do speak) of true wisdom (prajna), which I note arises spontaneously and in seamless accord with conditions and events just as they arise or occur, and our response is immediate and unmediated, simultaneously with the operation of true compassion (karuna) in our action or response. This is in everyday life, when one is awake.
Awake = bodhana. This means truly realized. An ārya, not a common person.
Now, awakenings occur, and one has this opening of/to spontaneous true wisdom and true compassion, on a daily and continuing basis, for some time. When one is not blessed with these -- say, when the awakened state is no longer supported by the eight elements that one has developed within the eightfold-path -- and hence the awakened state has submerged again, eroded, evaporated -- one is then an ordinary deluded being, again (even if with a memory of "the way things 'really' are", as obvious in the awakened state).
While on the impure bodhisattva stages, which begin with the path of seeing, one can forget one's awakening upon taking rebirth. In this lifetime, however, it is impossible for awakening to erode once attained. In other words, there is no way to fall back from the path of seeing in this lifetime. However, on the path of application, one's similitude of awakening can certainly come and go.
I'd appreciate knowing how you will expand on the notion and understanding of bodhi, as distinct (if distinct... ) from prajna which arises naturally and unbidden in the awakened state.
Prajñā is the cause of awakening (bodhi), on this we both agree. However, there are two kinds of prajñā: contaminated and uncontaminated, and all prajñā of ordinary people, no matter how subtle, is contaminated.
I'm not sure this is the thread in which to do it. I'm new at the board, and perhaps you feel it would be better to begin a new and dedicated thread along the lines you envision which could address these things. Thank you!, very much.
This kind of discussion between practitioners of Chan and practitioners of Vajrayāna are not that fruitful. The principle reason is that Vajrayāna practitioners, following Indian Mahāyāna precedents, make very clear distinctions between the paths below and above the path of seeing, and categorize experiences accordingly. So to us, the idea that one's awakening can be eroded does not make any sense. If it can be eroded, it is not awakening, but rather a peak on the path of application, which itself has four stages: heat, peak, patience, highest mundane phenomena. The last, highest mundane phenomena, is where one rests prior to making the final breakthrough on the path of seeing. Once one has obtained the path of seeing, it is impossible that one's awakening can be eroded at all in this life, and in future lives, if and when one meets the path again, one will swiftly recapture this awakening, though it might be thousands of years hence. Nevertheless, such people who have woken up once in past lives will be characterized by uncommon compassion and selflessness in deed, their minds "perfumed" by the realization of emptiness. But they will not realize emptiness again until they meet the Mahāyāna Dharma again.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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The Great Death is the breakthrough in Chan. Why it erodes is one can’t utilize the function of aggregates to benefit beings. It isn’t the type of work of going to market to do charity.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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Malcolm,

Thank you for a very thorough and clear reply. I feel I sense better now what your orientation in this world of practice may be, and your influences.

As a lay Ch'an/Zen practitioner, things are rather simpler. It seems that you are describing the fortunate or perhaps fortified position of a practitioner who is monastic, and not living and working in the lay world. There may be, in the monastic world, many supports and fortifications against "backsliding", erosion, or evaporation. In the lay world, well, it's more "red of tooth and claw", it seems, sometimes. One's samadhi must be nearly bullet-proof in order to nourish the awakened and empty state.

I thought mine (samadhi practice) was robust, bullet-proof (I lived in New York City), but it eroded after 2 1/2 months of the first opening, after everything stopped for that interval. Actually, I took on too much work (I am a scientist), and did not succeed in supporting my follow-on practice sufficiently, and had insufficient contact with my Shih-fu. I was too oversubscribed (but, got a lot done). ;-)

May I say?, the downfall has actually been good, in some ways. I could then more readily relate to others who needed help in their practice. I taught a Buddhist yoga since 1980 in various circles (after Sheng Yen taught a few of us to do so), and it was perhaps more effective for me to teach it after I myself had become be-clouded again and darkened again. Else, it was too easy for me, and students found it difficult either to emulate or to dedicate themselves to what I showed them. Granted, I maintained most of the outward signs (flexibility, stamina, health, etc.), but my experience was not effortless as before. This only "upped" my concern and compassion for others, knowing that their suffering or difficulty (challenges) were akin to mine. I was no longer "weightless", and a rag-doll. There was some tension in the body. This new be-clouded, be-nighted, compassion was not the original karuna, or true compassion, of course, but I was learning how to be helpful without causing troubles for others (true compassion is by far more reliable not to cause problems).

Subsequent openings, on strong retreats, were of lesser lifetime than the first.

It's not too accurate a metaphor, I think, but I recall the image of a stone skipping on water: the first skip is a long one, and subsequent skips are shorter, shorter, shorter, until!, eventually, one sinks. Else, we're all of us all wet.

In all sincerity,

--Joe
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:20 pm Malcolm,

Thank you for a very thorough and clear reply. I feel I sense better now what your orientation in this world of practice may be, and your influences.

As a lay Ch'an/Zen practitioner, things are rather simpler. It seems that you are describing the fortunate or perhaps fortified position of a practitioner who is monastic, and not living and working in the lay world. There may be, in the monastic world, many supports and fortifications against "backsliding", erosion, or evaporation. In the lay world, well, it's more "red of tooth and claw", it seems, sometimes. One's samadhi must be nearly bullet-proof in order to nourish the awakened and empty state.

I thought mine (samadhi practice) was robust, bullet-proof (I lived in New York City), but it eroded after 2 1/2 months of the first opening, after everything stopped for that interval. Actually, I took on too much work (I am a scientist), and did not succeed in supporting my follow-on practice sufficiently, and had insufficient contact with my Shih-fu. I was too oversubscribed (but, got a lot done). ;-)

May I say?, the downfall has actually been good, in some ways. I could then more readily relate to others who needed help in their practice. I taught a Buddhist yoga since 1980 in various circles (after Sheng Yen taught a few of us to do so), and it was perhaps more effective for me to teach it after I myself had become be-clouded again and darkened again. Else, it was too easy for me, and students found it difficult either to emulate or to dedicate themselves to what I showed them. Granted, I maintained most of the outward signs (flexibility, stamina, health, etc.), but my experience was not effortless as before. This only "upped" my concern and compassion for others, knowing that their suffering or difficulty (challenges) were akin to mine. I was no longer "weightless", and a rag-doll. There was some tension in the body. This new be-clouded compassion was not the original karuna, or true compassion, of course, but I was learning how to be helpful without cause too many troubles.

Subsequent openings, on strong retreats, were of lesser lifetime than the first.

It's not accurate, I think, but I recall the image of a stone skipping on water: the first skip is a long one, and subsequent skips are shorter, shorter, shorter, until, eventually, one sinks. Else, we're all of us all wet!

In all sincerity,

--Joe
It’s the process of repaying karma in the path of practice as well…weightless comes after.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Berry »

desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once, so we may see that we have not been lied to by Buddhas and Ancestors. Hakuin reputedly had multiple awakenings, and we know that multiple awakenings are possible. But so is at least one.

Hey Joe,
Do you consider yourself to be "enlightened "? ~ I'm just curious!

.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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Berry wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:53 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once, so we may see that we have not been lied to by Buddhas and Ancestors. Hakuin reputedly had multiple awakenings, and we know that multiple awakenings are possible. But so is at least one.

Hey Joe,
Do you consider yourself to be "enlightened "? ~ I'm just curious! .
Hey Berry,

:offtopic:

Fellow using screen-name "Malcolm" asked nearly the same in this thread, and I replied.

By the way, in our time the word "enlightened" has been deprecated, along with other archaic-seeming words, such as "Hinayana", at least in most polite conversation. "Enlightened" was always a mis-translation, by some of the early Brits hundreds of years ago who tried, however valiantly, to put the sutras into our vernacular. Not everything was gotten right, because none of them had practiced. In any case, the Buddha is given to have said about himself -- when asked what he "is" -- "I am Awake".

"Hey Joe" is the title and beginning of a Jimi Hendrix song, BTW.

It should be noted that as viewed in Ch'an and Zen circles, awakening is not necessarily (and is rarely) a permanent condition, and, note too -- as given above -- that multiple awakenings are possible (in one lifetime; on which, see Hakuin). My own late teacher viewed awakening as the start of real practice, when it becomes very clear which direction to take.

But again, returning to topic, I'd claim monism does not apply because the mind of no-mind does not admit of dualities, much less unities.

With best wishes for strong practice,

:namaste:
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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It is not clear to me that all is mind is a form of metaphysical idealism. Zen seems very focused on one's experience, and all of our experience (which to us is everything) is mind. I don't think it even makes sense to ask "what it is like outside of minds."

In addition, mind is empty, so it is not a substance or substrate.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

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Berry wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:53 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:12 am People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing.
I'm just curious!
Curiosity is also an essential element of awakening.
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Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic? II

Post by Berry »

desert_woodworker wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:51 pm People who practice have of a chance of awakening, especially if they have good conditions, good teacher, good sangha, and something like a good practice and an element of good luck and timing. I'd say it's "incumbent" on each practitioner to awaken at least once, so we may see that we have not been lied to by Buddhas and Ancestors. Hakuin reputedly had multiple awakenings, and we know that multiple awakenings are possible. But so is at least one.
Hey Joe,
Do you consider yourself to be "enlightened "? ~ I'm just curious!
desert_woodworker wrote:
Hey Berry,

:offtopic:

Fellow using screen-name "Malcolm" asked nearly the same in this thread, and I replied.

By the way, in our time the word "enlightened" has been deprecated, along with other archaic-seeming words, such as "Hinayana", at least in most polite conversation. "Enlightened" was always a mis-translation, by some of the early Brits hundreds of years ago who tried, however valiantly, to put the sutras into our vernacular. Not everything was gotten right, because none of them had practiced. In any case, the Buddha is given to have said about himself -- when asked what he "is" -- "I am Awake".


"Hey Joe" is the title and beginning of a Jimi Hendrix song, BTW.


With best wishes for strong practice,

Yes, I did know that about Jimi Hendrix!
It should be noted that as viewed in Ch'an and Zen circles, awakening is not necessarily (and is rarely) a permanent condition, and, note too -- as given above -- that multiple awakenings are possible (in one lifetime; on which, see Hakuin). My own late teacher viewed awakening as the start of real practice, when it becomes very clear which direction to take.
I wouldn't know about that, sorry, I'm a long -term Vajrayana practitioner, and also interested in Theravada. I'm not all that interested in anything in between.

Stay safe and well and good luck with your practice. :hi:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
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