How difference between Chan and Zen.

RonBucker
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How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

Are these two schools very similar? For example, Chan Buddhists can teach Zen Buddhists, and Zen Buddhists may teach the practice of Chan Buddhists.
Or do Chan Buddhists think Zen Buddhists have a slightly different mindset about practice?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Zen is the Japanese word for Chan,
which is the Chinese word for Dhyana.
EMPTIFUL.
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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Not sure what Chan or Zen is anymore. Sometimes when I asked my teacher questions like why is there appearance of seeing in emptiness, he answered “constructing who to see?” This is more of direct contemplation not really answering the question with interpretation.
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RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:11 pm Zen is the Japanese word for Chan,
which is the Chinese word for Dhyana.
So this is the same school? How popular is Zen in Japan, Chan in China?
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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RonBucker wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:21 pm Are these two schools very similar? For example, Chan Buddhists can teach Zen Buddhists, and Zen Buddhists may teach the practice of Chan Buddhists.
Or do Chan Buddhists think Zen Buddhists have a slightly different mindset about practice?
The sole unique identifying element of all Chan/Zen groups is their ancestral lineage where the last common ancestor is Huineng (638-713).
The two main groups in Japan are Soto, that is quite centralised, and Rinzai, that is more of an association of several organisations.
I cannot speak for Mainland China, but as for the Republic three of the Four Great Mountains were founded by members of a Chan lineage: Fo Guang Shan, Fa Gu Shan, Zhong Tai Shan.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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RonBucker wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:25 pm
How popular is Zen in Japan, Chan in China?
I know that great damage has been done to the Dharma in mainland China by the CCP, but the Dharma persists there to some extent, tightly overseen by the Communist Party.

In Taiwan and among Chinese abroad in other nations, Buddhism is in a healthier and more organic shape.

In Japan, I would not say that Zen is particularly "popular" but it exists. Training in the Dharma continues. Many temples offer Zazen and Sutra copying opportunities for laypeople, and they are often well-attended events. Japanese Buddhism in general is often described as "funiary Buddhism," as the main source of income for most temples relates to funerals and associated rituals.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:19 am
RonBucker wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:25 pm
How popular is Zen in Japan, Chan in China?
I know that great damage has been done to the Dharma in mainland China by the CCP, but the Dharma persists there to some extent, tightly overseen by the Communist Party.

In Taiwan and among Chinese abroad in other nations, Buddhism is in a healthier and more organic shape.

In Japan, I would not say that Zen is particularly "popular" but it exists. Training in the Dharma continues. Many temples offer Zazen and Sutra copying opportunities for laypeople, and they are often well-attended events. Japanese Buddhism in general is often described as "funiary Buddhism," as the main source of income for most temples relates to funerals and associated rituals.
What is the most popular school of Buddhism in China and Japan?
Last edited by RonBucker on Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 amWhat is the most popular school of Buddhism in China and Japan?
Pure Land.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:46 am
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 amWhat is the most popular school of Buddhism in China and Japan?
Pure Land.
Thank you. So the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:07 pm
Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:46 am
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 amWhat is the most popular school of Buddhism in China and Japan?
Pure Land.
Thank you. So the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
Vietnam too.
It’s eye blinking.
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Matt J
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Matt J »

If you want a taste, you could check out videos of two teachers, who strike me as outstanding teachers their traditions:

Meido Moore Roshi (Zen): https://www.patreon.com/korinji

Guo Gu (Chan): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... NKdGs%253D
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RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:37 pm
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:07 pm
Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:46 am

Pure Land.
Thank you. So the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
Vietnam too.
What are the main differences between Pure Land and Chan Buddhism? Thank you
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:07 pmSo the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
The most popular form of Buddhism in East Asia is Pure Land. It is only in Japan where distinct organisations exist for Pure Land practice, and there they (mainly Jōdo-shū and Jōdo Shinshū) are the biggest Buddhist churches. Similarly, it is in Japan where you find individual churches for Zen. There is no such organisational separation based on school affiliation in other countries. Also, when there is talk of 'Chan school', 'Pure Land school', or 'Tiantai school', that's not an either/or situation, but more of a set of ideas and methods that can be studied and applied easily by the same person.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:03 pm
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:07 pmSo the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
The most popular form of Buddhism in East Asia is Pure Land. It is only in Japan where distinct organisations exist for Pure Land practice, and there they (mainly Jōdo-shū and Jōdo Shinshū) are the biggest Buddhist churches. Similarly, it is in Japan where you find individual churches for Zen. There is no such organisational separation based on school affiliation in other countries. Also, when there is talk of 'Chan school', 'Pure Land school', or 'Tiantai school', that's not an either/or situation, but more of a set of ideas and methods that can be studied and applied easily by the same person.
Thank you. This means that there will be no disagreement between Chinese, Japanese and Korean Buddhists if they all come to the same church.
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm This means that there will be no disagreement between Chinese, Japanese and Korean Buddhists if they all come to the same church.
It depends on what sort of disagreement you mean.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:53 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:37 pm
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:07 pm

Thank you. So the most popular Buddhism in China, Japan and Korea is Pure Land Buddhism and Chan / Zen?
Vietnam too.
What are the main differences between Pure Land and Chan Buddhism? Thank you
Not much difference no...but if we have to distinguish it would be: Pure Land practitioners would recite Amitabha, and Chan would ask who recites Amitabha?



If good men and good women aspire to enter the One Action Samādhi, they should sit properly in an open place, facing the direction of a Buddha, abandon distracting thoughts and appearances, focus their minds on that Buddha, and keep saying His name. If they can continue, thought after thought, thinking of one Buddha, they will be able to see, in their thinking, past, future, and present Buddhas. Why? Because the merit acquired from thinking of one Buddha is immeasurable and boundless, no different from the merit acquired from thinking of innumerable Buddhas or thinking of the inconceivable Buddha Dharma. They all will realize true suchness and attain the perfect enlightenment, acquiring immeasurable merit and eloquence. Those who enter the One Action Samādhi in this way will know that there are no differentiated appearances in the dharma realm of Buddhas, who are as numerous as the sands of the Ganges. Although among voice-hearers Ānanda is foremost in the Buddha Dharma he has heard, in his total retention of memory, and in his eloquence and wisdom, his attainment has a measure and a limit. If one has attained the One Action Samādhi, one will be able to differentiate one by one the Dharma Doors in the sūtras and to know them all, without obstructions. One will be able to expound them day and night unceasingly with wisdom and eloquence. By comparison, Ānanda’s eloquence and hearing much [of the Dharma] are not even one hundred-thousandth thereof. Bodhisattva-Mahāsattvas should think: ‘How should I attain this One Action Samādhi, which will bring inconceivable merit and innumerable [good] names?’”



http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html
It’s eye blinking.
RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:10 pm
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm This means that there will be no disagreement between Chinese, Japanese and Korean Buddhists if they all come to the same church.
It depends on what sort of disagreement you mean.
Well, for example, meditation. Can Chinese Buddhists teach Japanese Buddhists how to meditate or will Chinese people think that the Japanese will disagree with their teachings? Thank you
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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There causes and conditions that lead students to teachers. If one goes to a Dharma speech spoken by a master or guru, but one doesn’t like it he or she can walk off.
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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Matt J wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:25 pm If you want a taste, you could check out videos of two teachers, who strike me as outstanding teachers their traditions:

Meido Moore Roshi (Zen): https://www.patreon.com/korinji

Guo Gu (Chan): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... NKdGs%253D
Those are two outstanding teachers, each in their respective sect, Guo Gu in Chan and Meido Moore Roshi in the Rinzai sect, but who would you recommend in the Soto sect?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Astus »

RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:38 pmCan Chinese Buddhists teach Japanese Buddhists how to meditate or will Chinese people think that the Japanese will disagree with their teachings?
It depends on who teaches whom, not their nationality.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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