How difference between Chan and Zen.

SilenceMonkey
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by SilenceMonkey »

clyde wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:52 pm
Matt J wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:25 pm If you want a taste, you could check out videos of two teachers, who strike me as outstanding teachers their traditions:

Meido Moore Roshi (Zen): https://www.patreon.com/korinji

Guo Gu (Chan): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... NKdGs%253D
Those are two outstanding teachers, each in their respective sect, Guo Gu in Chan and Meido Moore Roshi in the Rinzai sect, but who would you recommend in the Soto sect?
Linda Huang is another awesome teacher in the Dharma Drum lineage (Ch'an). Her style is very Linji (chinese rinzai), pretty intense huatou and koan practice. Guo Gu is more Caodong style (chinese soto), with a focus on calm awareness of silent illumination practice (the chinese precursor to shikantaza).

I agree... best way to know ch'an and zen is to taste it.
Nicholas2727
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Nicholas2727 »

RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:38 pm
Astus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:10 pm
RonBucker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm This means that there will be no disagreement between Chinese, Japanese and Korean Buddhists if they all come to the same church.
It depends on what sort of disagreement you mean.
Well, for example, meditation. Can Chinese Buddhists teach Japanese Buddhists how to meditate or will Chinese people think that the Japanese will disagree with their teachings? Thank you
In general the main meditation methods practiced in Chan are hua tou and silent illumination. Some teachers may teach different styles of shamatha and vipashyana, but traditionally speaking hua tou and silent illumination are the most common.

In Korea it is called Hwadu (same as hua tou in China I believe) and I also believe silent illumination is practiced there.

In Japan it gets slightly different. The Soto school primarily practices Shikantaza, while the Rinzai school is famous for koan practice and other breathing meditation techniques.

Some others on here may be able to give you more detailed answers to questions but this is the information I know.
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Can someone who practices Hau Tou shed some lights in how it works?
It’s eye blinking.
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Astus »

On the practice of huatou/hwadu, that has become the main form of Chan practice since the 12th century, there are some good introductory texts:

Essentials of Practice and Enlightenment for Beginners by Hanshan Deqing.
The Ch’an Training by Xuyun.
Knocking Gently on the Door of Chan (PDF) by Guo Ru.
What is Ganhwa Seon?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

What if one doesn’t have doubt?
It’s eye blinking.
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Astus
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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oryoki
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by oryoki »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
Doubt in Zen really means no attachment to yes or no; to self or non-self; to know or don't know, etc.
"If a person can indeed gain a doubting mind, such a person can crush out innumerable defilements, as great in size as Mount Sumeru. When a man gains an immovable mind, this is what we call clinging."
Quote from Mahaparinirvana sutra, Chapter 41,
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/convenient/ ... e_2007.pdf
"Strong religious faith conquers doubt, not ignorance; and with doubt conquered, ignorance becomes invincible, immovable. All hail the conquering fool !!!"
Quote from internet
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:41 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
It’s eye blinking.
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KeithA
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by KeithA »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 am
Astus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:41 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
Doubt is the amplification of the essential human question: what is this life? Everybody has this question, even the Buddha did. Taking up this question sincerely and deeply, causes a mass of doubt to be generated, to use Astus' term. It's a very natural process.

_/|\_
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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oryoki
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by oryoki »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 am
Astus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:41 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
Sometimes I doubt doubt; sometimes my doubt fades into the background, as I drop the doubt for a while.

Shikantaza is presented in Zen as dropping of mind and body, which really means no attachment to conceptualisation or non-conceptualisation. However, there is also dropping of the dropping, which really means showing preferences. For example: If all seats in the bus are taken, and on one of the seats is sitting some young person, and some old person boards the bus; then what should the young person think and do (with his/her mind and body)? .......
On the other hand, the young person does not have to destroy his/her bus ticket or get off the bus. It is sufficient that the thought of his/her bus ticket, which is just as valid as the ticket of the old person, fades for a while into the darkness as his/her kindness comes into the light.
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

KeithA wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:34 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 am
Astus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:41 am

It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
Doubt is the amplification of the essential human question: what is this life? Everybody has this question, even the Buddha did. Taking up this question sincerely and deeply, causes a mass of doubt to be generated, to use Astus' term. It's a very natural process.

_/|\_
Keith
I think so.
It’s eye blinking.
RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:16 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 am
Astus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:41 am

It has to be generated.

Great Doubt: Practicing Zen in the World by Boshan Yuanlai
Talks by Jeff Shore on Boshan's text: Part 1 (PDF), Part 2-3 (PDF)
The Chan Whip Anthology by Yunqi Zhuhong
I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
Sometimes I doubt doubt; sometimes my doubt fades into the background, as I drop the doubt for a while.

Shikantaza is presented in Zen as dropping of mind and body, which really means no attachment to conceptualisation or non-conceptualisation. However, there is also dropping of the dropping, which really means showing preferences. For example: If all seats in the bus are taken, and on one of the seats is sitting some young person, and some old person boards the bus; then what should the young person think and do (with his/her mind and body)? .......
On the other hand, the young person does not have to destroy his/her bus ticket or get off the bus. It is sufficient that the thought of his/her bus ticket, which is just as valid as the ticket of the old person, fades for a while into the darkness as his/her kindness comes into the light.
Excuse me, may I ask? what should the young person think and do (with his / her mind and body) when some old person boards the bus? Would it be correct to give up a seat on the bus to an elderly person, as I understand it?
Last edited by RonBucker on Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:48 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
Doubt in Zen really means no attachment to yes or no; to self or non-self; to know or don't know, etc.
"If a person can indeed gain a doubting mind, such a person can crush out innumerable defilements, as great in size as Mount Sumeru. When a man gains an immovable mind, this is what we call clinging."
Quote from Mahaparinirvana sutra, Chapter 41,
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/convenient/ ... e_2007.pdf
"Strong religious faith conquers doubt, not ignorance; and with doubt conquered, ignorance becomes invincible, immovable. All hail the conquering fool !!!"
Quote from internet
I thought to have doubt is because we don’t know? Specifically in Zen regarding Buddha nature ?
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

I think knowing conceptually is quite different from knowing something that we directly stand witness to.
It’s eye blinking.
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oryoki
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by oryoki »

RonBucker wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:08 pm
oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:16 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 am

I want to push it a little bit. Why don’t you have doubt?😉
Sometimes I doubt doubt; sometimes my doubt fades into the background, as I drop the doubt for a while.

Shikantaza is presented in Zen as dropping of mind and body, which really means no attachment to conceptualisation or non-conceptualisation. However, there is also dropping of the dropping, which really means showing preferences. For example: If all seats in the bus are taken, and on one of the seats is sitting some young person, and some old person boards the bus; then what should the young person think and do (with his/her mind and body)? .......
On the other hand, the young person does not have to destroy his/her bus ticket or get off the bus. It is sufficient that the thought of his/her bus ticket, which is just as valid as the ticket of the old person, fades for a while into the darkness as his/her kindness comes into the light.
Excuse me, may I ask? what should the young person think and do (with his / her mind and body) when some old person boards the bus? Would it be correct to give up a seat on the bus to an elderly person, as I understand it?
Yes of course, especially if all the other seats are also ocuppied.
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oryoki
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by oryoki »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:22 pm
oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:48 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am What if one doesn’t have doubt?
Doubt in Zen really means no attachment to yes or no; to self or non-self; to know or don't know, etc.
"If a person can indeed gain a doubting mind, such a person can crush out innumerable defilements, as great in size as Mount Sumeru. When a man gains an immovable mind, this is what we call clinging."
Quote from Mahaparinirvana sutra, Chapter 41,
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/convenient/ ... e_2007.pdf
"Strong religious faith conquers doubt, not ignorance; and with doubt conquered, ignorance becomes invincible, immovable. All hail the conquering fool !!!"
Quote from internet
I thought to have doubt is because we don’t know? Specifically in Zen regarding Buddha nature ?
Yes of course we have a doubt regarding Buddha Nature. That's practice of sitting meditation. But we also live in the "market place" of ordinary conventional live, where we don't doubt for days and days whether we should eat or not.
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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

True. It’s a hard practice. For me it’s simple, when my teacher said intention I want to know how it behaves. How it arises and why it arises. Because it draws karmic experience along with thoughts.
It’s eye blinking.
RonBucker
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by RonBucker »

oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:38 pm
RonBucker wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:08 pm
oryoki wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:16 pm
Sometimes I doubt doubt; sometimes my doubt fades into the background, as I drop the doubt for a while.

Shikantaza is presented in Zen as dropping of mind and body, which really means no attachment to conceptualisation or non-conceptualisation. However, there is also dropping of the dropping, which really means showing preferences. For example: If all seats in the bus are taken, and on one of the seats is sitting some young person, and some old person boards the bus; then what should the young person think and do (with his/her mind and body)? .......
On the other hand, the young person does not have to destroy his/her bus ticket or get off the bus. It is sufficient that the thought of his/her bus ticket, which is just as valid as the ticket of the old person, fades for a while into the darkness as his/her kindness comes into the light.
Excuse me, may I ask? what should the young person think and do (with his / her mind and body) when some old person boards the bus? Would it be correct to give up a seat on the bus to an elderly person, as I understand it?
Yes of course, especially if all the other seats are also ocuppied.
Thank you
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seeker242
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by seeker242 »

I don't think there is any real difference. You could listen to a Chan Master give a dharma talk and a Zen master give a dharma talk and they both would be saying essentially the same things. :meditate:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by KiwiNFLFan »

One point that I might add is that Zen in the West is different to Zen in East Asia. At a typical Western Zen centre, the main practice is meditation, with maybe a bit of chanting thrown in.

In East Asia (my experience is from Korea mostly), meditation is only part of Zen. At a typical Korean Seon (Korean for 'Zen') temple, most of the practices are chanting. From the couple of public services I attended, they mostly seemed to be focused on reciting various texts. Also, at my local Chinese temple (Linji Lineage) here in NZ, the services are also just mostly recitation of texts (Heart Sutra, Amitabha Sutra/88 Buddhas Great Repentance Service, Great Compassion Dharani etc).

So it seems to me that Western Zen centres have taken the meditation aspect of Zen and placed it front and center, unlike how it is in East Asia (but then, this is from my limited experience).

If you have in your town a Chinese Chan temple, a Vietnamese Thien temple or a Korean Seon temple, you could attend those and see how they differ to a Western Zen centre. Be warned though: some of the monks or nuns who serve temples in Western countries speak little or no English as they primarily minister to people from their own country/culture who speak the same language.
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