Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nd_therapy
Chan Buddhism is most popular school in Modern Chinese Buddhism.
Modern psychology believes that the masters and monks of Chan Buddhism can better treat people from mental illness because they know better how other people's minds work?
Are there monks with special psychic abilities who can read the minds of others?
https://suttacentral.net/mn119/en/horner
It would be useful for psychology to be able to read the minds of other people. Thank you
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Astus »

That's only an abstract, but the paper is from 2008. Any follow up studies?
Chan Buddhism is most popular school in Modern Chinese Buddhism.
How do we know that? Also, it's probably not true.
Modern psychology believes that the masters and monks of Chan Buddhism can better treat people from mental illness because they know better how other people's minds work?
Unlikely.
Are there monks with special psychic abilities who can read the minds of others?
It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds.
It would be useful for psychology to be able to read the minds of other people.
Parapsychology is supposed to deal with telepathy. Psychology not so much.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:38 pm
That's only an abstract, but the paper is from 2008. Any follow up studies?
Chan Buddhism is most popular school in Modern Chinese Buddhism.
How do we know that? Also, it's probably not true.
Modern psychology believes that the masters and monks of Chan Buddhism can better treat people from mental illness because they know better how other people's minds work?
Unlikely.
Are there monks with special psychic abilities who can read the minds of others?
It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds.
It would be useful for psychology to be able to read the minds of other people.
Parapsychology is supposed to deal with telepathy. Psychology not so much.
"It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds."
what does it mean?

Does Chan Buddhism have telepathy?
How is the psychology of Chan Buddhism different from modern psychology?
Thank you
Last edited by Arnold3000 on Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Astus »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 pm"It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds."
what does it mean?
Chan Buddhism is about seeing into the mind we use all the time, that is the primary goal. Worrying about the minds of others can only come later.
Does Chan Buddhism have telepathy?
How is the psychology of Chan Buddhism different from modern psychology?
You can read these two booklets by Ven. Hsing Yun:
The Buddhist Perspective on the Supernatural
Buddhism and Psychology
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:18 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 pm"It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds."
what does it mean?
Chan Buddhism is about seeing into the mind we use all the time, that is the primary goal. Worrying about the minds of others can only come later.
Does Chan Buddhism have telepathy?
How is the psychology of Chan Buddhism different from modern psychology?
You can read these two booklets by Ven. Hsing Yun:
The Buddhist Perspective on the Supernatural
Buddhism and Psychology
"Worrying about the minds of others can only come later."
Does this mean that the practitioner first brings his mind to enlightenment and then helps other minds to come to enlightenment?
Is it like when a psychologist first studies at the university and then helps patients deal with their stress and anxiety?
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Astus »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:27 pmDoes this mean that the practitioner first brings his mind to enlightenment and then helps other minds to come to enlightenment?
Is it like when a psychologist first studies at the university and then helps patients deal with their stress and anxiety?
Sure. How else could it be?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:38 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:27 pmDoes this mean that the practitioner first brings his mind to enlightenment and then helps other minds to come to enlightenment?
Is it like when a psychologist first studies at the university and then helps patients deal with their stress and anxiety?
Sure. How else could it be?
Enlightenment means we have to genuinely know that’s we are not subject to karmic rebirth. There are strict signs.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Budai »

It’s possible to be free of karma indefinitely, even forever, without achieving Enlightenment yet [eventually one will], such as being in a Buddha Land, and one can still choose to take rebirth in the Saha world without karma in a non-regressive karma free state, yet still not being a full Buddha, because of their level of Bodhisattvic ideal up to that point.

So while you are still on the Path, it is important to engage with other people’s minds in Buddhism, one’s own, and make the best of what you can, and seek Enlightenment diligently.
Last edited by Budai on Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Just because our minds are at peace ;) and seen as empty doesn’t mean we have reached Noble Wisdom Samadhi of what describes in Sutras. Because there is ignorance left. What is that ignorance!? My teacher said...what? That enlightenment could be extremely difficult and easy at the same time.
Last edited by LastLegend on Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

If we want to feel a Buddha, we’ll arise a peaceful thought towards that Buddha (a real one like Avalokitesvara and Samantabhadra). If we don’t recognize their presence that means we are not in tune with them.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

A lot of Zen folks here, though following Mahayana, are actually practicing Sravakayana...there is nothing wrong with that except it’s not Mahayana. Why? Because they don’t believe in external force of Buddhas who are able to transform their karma over time and leading them towards Noble Wisdom. Simply because they don’t recognize Buddhas’ presence and how Buddhas respond to them.
It’s eye blinking.
Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:38 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:27 pmDoes this mean that the practitioner first brings his mind to enlightenment and then helps other minds to come to enlightenment?
Is it like when a psychologist first studies at the university and then helps patients deal with their stress and anxiety?
Sure. How else could it be?
That is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
And the customary believers of Chan Buddhism who have enlightened their minds can help the minds of other people to come to enlightenment or is it only a master or a monk can?
Thank you.
Last edited by Arnold3000 on Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:38 pm
That's only an abstract, but the paper is from 2008. Any follow up studies?
Chan Buddhism is most popular school in Modern Chinese Buddhism.
How do we know that? Also, it's probably not true.
Modern psychology believes that the masters and monks of Chan Buddhism can better treat people from mental illness because they know better how other people's minds work?
Unlikely.
Are there monks with special psychic abilities who can read the minds of others?
It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds.
It would be useful for psychology to be able to read the minds of other people.
Parapsychology is supposed to deal with telepathy. Psychology not so much.
"It would be wonderful if they could read their own minds."
what does it mean?

Does Chan Buddhism have telepathy?
How is the psychology of Chan Buddhism different from modern psychology?
Thank you
Asking such a difficult question!?

It’s about entering Samadhi unless reading one’s own mind to know before a bad karmic experience arises, that’s useful.
It’s eye blinking.
Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:48 pm It’s possible to be free of karma indefinitely, even forever, without achieving Enlightenment yet [eventually one will], such as being in a Buddha Land, and one can still choose to take rebirth in the Saha world without karma in a non-regressive karma free state, yet still not being a full Buddha, because of their level of Bodhisattvic ideal up to that point.

So while you are still on the Path, it is important to engage with other people’s minds in Buddhism, one’s own, and make the best of what you can, and seek Enlightenment diligently.
"So while you are still on the Path, it is important to engage with other people’s minds in Buddhism"

on the path to enlightenment Chan Buddhists must engage with all people’s minds or only with other Chan Buddhists minds, monks minds and masters minds?
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:24 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:38 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:27 pmDoes this mean that the practitioner first brings his mind to enlightenment and then helps other minds to come to enlightenment?
Is it like when a psychologist first studies at the university and then helps patients deal with their stress and anxiety?
Sure. How else could it be?
That is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
And the customary believers of Chan Buddhism who have enlightened their minds can help the minds of other people to come to enlightenment or is it only a master or a monk can?
Thank you.
Anyone can become enlightened...monks and masters are not automatically equivalent to enlightened minds. It depends on causes and conditions that lead you to those masters.
It’s eye blinking.
Arnold3000
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Arnold3000 »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:24 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:38 pm

Sure. How else could it be?
That is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
And the customary believers of Chan Buddhism who have enlightened their minds can help the minds of other people to come to enlightenment or is it only a master or a monk can?
Thank you.
Anyone can become enlightened...monks and masters are not automatically equivalent to enlightened minds. It depends on causes and conditions that lead you to those masters.
But the Chan master can help another person cope with his negative thoughts and stresses. What about the enlightened Chan Buddhist who is not a master? Can he also help other minds cope with their stresses, or will he not have sufficient knowledge?
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

When I said enlightened minds I mean samadhi of Noble Wisdom or Mahaprajna.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by LastLegend »

Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:16 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:24 pm

That is, monks and Chan Buddhism masters can help people cope with their mental disorders, anxiety and stresses?
And the customary believers of Chan Buddhism who have enlightened their minds can help the minds of other people to come to enlightenment or is it only a master or a monk can?
Thank you.
Anyone can become enlightened...monks and masters are not automatically equivalent to enlightened minds. It depends on causes and conditions that lead you to those masters.
But the Chan master can help another person cope with his negative thoughts and stresses. What about the enlightened Chan Buddhist who is not a master? Can he also help other minds cope with their stresses, or will he not have sufficient knowledge?
They can try...but if those folks don’t follow the teaching and they don’t feel tired of suffering and not decide to follow the path, that’s difficult. Enlightened minds don’t actively go seek those folks with anxiety and stress to help.
It’s eye blinking.
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Modern Chinese Chan Buddhism and Modern Psychology

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Understanding one’s own mind enables a better understanding of the minds of others, no telepathy needed.
Agreed. When one's own mind is clear, one can see everything more clearly. That includes other people and their issues.

I think it's just a matter of clearing away the garbage in one's mind. There's a lot of garbage that gets in the way of a deep connection with another person. The more it's cleared away, the deeper one can relate with someone else. Profound empathy can arise and one can really experience what is happening with another person.
Post Reply

Return to “Chan”