The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

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Orgyen
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The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Orgyen »

Dear members ,

I read somewhere that all those historical chan practioner attaintment were below first bhumi , true or false ?

Thanks
People may speaks marvelously, highly intelligent but they have no integrity, the dharma do not function in their life .
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Astus
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Astus »

Different people have different views on what level matches seeing the nature of mind, i.e. sudden realisation. It can be anything from the level of faith, through 1st and 8th stage, to buddhahood. But there's not much to any of that unless one can recognise for oneself that there is nothing to attain.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by LastLegend »

Orgyen wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 pm Dear members ,

I read somewhere that all those historical chan practioner attaintment were below first bhumi , true or false ?

Thanks
Not sure.

Samadhi of enlightened nature has no stage but wisdom is what distinguishes different stages. For example, a 10th Bhumi doesn’t know all skillful means and they probably can’t coach newly enlightened beings (who just attained samadhi of enlightened nature). Only Ancient Buddhas like Avalokitesvara or Vairocana can do that.
It’s eye blinking.
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Look this is a bit over my head, sorry no funny pun.

The bhumi are levels of bodhisattvas.
It comes down to this!
Has a Chan master completed all stages of bodhisattva and then,
Was there a Chan Buddha?

How is there Chan Buddhism and no Chan Buddha?

Thanks for the post, deep technical teaching.
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KeithA
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by KeithA »

Orgyen wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 pm Dear members ,

I read somewhere that all those historical chan practioner attaintment were below first bhumi , true or false ?

Thanks
There are no levels in Zen. Just delusion/enlightenment.

🙏
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

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Genjo Conan
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Genjo Conan »

The bhumis are not a framework that is recognized within Chan/Zen. The historical Chan teachers are long dead and, in many cases, their lives are not well recorded. So speculating about whether Master so-and-so manifested such-and-such qualities is not, in my view, especially productive.
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Ayu »

Nobodyisspecial wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:56 pm Look this is a bit over my head, sorry no funny pun.

The bhumi are levels of bodhisattvas.
It comes down to this!
Has a Chan master completed all stages of bodhisattva and then,
Was there a Chan Buddha?

How is there Chan Buddhism and no Chan Buddha?

Thanks for the post, deep technical teaching.
The last two posts prettily explain why this thread is useless.

Therefore this topic is locked.
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Ayu
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Ayu »

Due to disagreement with the locking I unlock the topic again. There are some arguments waiting for delivery.
:namaste:
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Astus
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Astus »

KeithA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:19 pmThere are no levels in Zen. Just delusion/enlightenment.
There are various levels used by various groups/teachers, including the standard 52 levels, and also levels used exclusively in Chan, like Dongshan's five ranks, or Seung Sahn's Zen circle.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Astus
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Astus »

Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:47 pmThe bhumis are not a framework that is recognized within Chan/Zen.
First of all, since it is taught in the sutras it is necessarily recognised and accepted. Furthermore, where gradual cultivation follows sudden awakening, the stages of cultivation are those of the 52 levels of bodhisattvas.

'Clearly remember: in the Buddhist patriarchs’ learning of the truth, to awaken the bodhi-mind is inevitably seen as foremost. This is the eternal rule of the Buddhist patriarchs. “To awaken” means to be clear in; it does not refer to the great realization of the truth itself. Even those who have suddenly experienced the ten states are still bodhisattvas. The twenty-eight patriarchs of India, the six patriarchs of China, and all the other great ancestral masters are bodhisattvas: they are not buddhas; and they are not śrāvakas, pratyekabuddhas, or the like. Among practitioners of this age there is not one person who clearly knows that [these patriarchs] are bodhisattvas, not śrāvakas. [Practitioners of this age] just randomly call themselves patchrobed monks and patch-robed disciples without knowing the reality of the matter, and so they have created confusion. It is pitiful that in a decadent age the truth of the patriarchs has degenerated.'
(Hotsu-bodaishin, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 3, p 354-355)

'As for “gradual cultivation,” although he has awakened to the fact that his original nature is no different from that of the buddhas, the beginningless proclivities of habit (vāsanā) are extremely difficult to remove suddenly. Therefore he must continue to cultivate while relying on this awakening so that this efficacy of gradual suffusion is perfected; he constantly nurtures the embryo of sanctity, and after a long, long time he becomes a sage. Hence it is called gradual cultivation. It is like the maturation of an infant: from the day of its birth, [an infant] is endowed with all its faculties, just like any other [human being], but its physical capacities are not yet fully developed; it is only after the passage of many months and years that it will finally mature into an adult.'
(Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 216-217)

'In Chinese Chan Buddhism, a sudden awakening means a sudden apprehension of a Buddha’s perception of reality. ... Entering into a Buddha’s perception of reality occurs when one reaches the level of a noble bodhisattva of the first ground or above, for only such a bodhisattva is able truly to eliminate ignorance bit by bit and attain enlightenment bit by bit. ...
We see that sudden awakening is just the beginning of the awareness regarding the underlying, essential principle of all dharmas, or buddhanature, and is not the same as becoming a Buddha. Gradual practice is the cultivation of merit through concrete actions. Only through accumulating merit through gradual practice can one actually become a Buddha: so “sudden awakening to principle but gradual practice with regard to actions” is another way to clarify sudden and gradual. This explanation shows us what sudden awakening in Chan Buddhism means.
The interpretation above is based on interpretation of doctrine. Some Chan practitioners may disagree, and claim that the sudden awakening they speak of is simply sudden awakening, and is basically unrelated to any stages or gradual practice. In this conception, when a practitioner is suddenly awakened, she sees the fundamental, real nature of Suchness right then and there. To do this, however, is beyond the capability of most people.'

(Orthodox Chinese Buddhism, p 126)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Genjo Conan
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Genjo Conan »

Wonderful. What stage was Linji on? Or Huangbo? Could Dogen manifest simultaneously in one million Buddha realms, or just ten thousand? Do you have a citation for that?
Malcolm
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:24 pm Wonderful. What stage was Linji on? Or Huangbo? Could Dogen manifest simultaneously in one million Buddha realms, or just ten thousand? Do you have a citation for that?
The point missed here is that bhumis do not refer to realizations, paths do. Bhumis are just measures of qualities.

In terms of awakened people, there is the path of seeing (first bhumi), and the path of cultivation (second through tenth). These two paths make up the ten bhumis. The path of no more learning is buddhahood.

The point is that when one has reached the path of seeing and entered the path of cultivation, buddhahood is inevitable, in some lifetime or another.

So, Dogen was pointing out something important. On the other hand, the realization of a buddha and that of a first stage bodhisattva are not really that different. They have realized the same emptiness. The difference is only the level of cultivation.
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Astus »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:24 pm Wonderful. What stage was Linji on? Or Huangbo? Could Dogen manifest simultaneously in one million Buddha realms, or just ten thousand? Do you have a citation for that?
For Linji such terms are empty names to use according to circumstances, for Huangbo gradual and sudden equally ends in buddhahood, and Dogen saw all realms in a blink of an eye.

'Followers of the Way, if you take my viewpoint you’ll cut off the heads of the saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya buddhas; a bodhisattva who has attained the completed mind of the tenth stage will be like a mere hireling; a bodhisattva of equivalent enlightenment or a bodhisattva of marvelous enlightenment will be like pilloried prisoners; an arhat and a pratyekabuddha will be like privy fi lth; bodhi and nirvana will be like hitching posts for asses. Why is this so? Followers of the Way, it is only because you haven’t yet realized the emptiness of the three asamkhyeya kalpas that you have such obstacles.'
(Record of Linji, p 10, tr Sasaki)

'If someone comes and asks about seeking buddha, I immediately appear in conformity with the state of purity; if someone asks about bodhisattvahood, I immediately appear in conformity with the state of compassion; if someone asks me about bodhi, I immediately appear in conformity with the state of pure mystery; if someone asks me about nirvana, I immediately appear in conformity with the state of serene stillness. Though there be ten thousand different states, the person does not differ.'
(p 16)

'Followers of the Way, make no mistake! All the dharmas of this world and of the worlds beyond are without self-nature. Also, they are without produced nature. Th ey are just empty names, and these names are also empty. All you are doing is taking these worthless names to be real. Th at’s all wrong! Even if they do exist, they are nothing but states of dependent transformation, such as the dependent transformations of bodhi, nirvana, emancipation, the threefold body, the [objective] surroundings and the [subjective] mind, bodhisattvahood, and buddhahood. What are you looking for in these lands of dependent transformations! All of these, up to and including the Three Vehicles’ twelve divisions of teachings, are just so much waste paper to wipe off privy fi lth. Th e Buddha is just a phantom body, the patriarchs just old monks.'
(p 19)

'There are those who, on hearing the dharma, attain no-mind in a single moment of thought. But there are also those who attain no-mind after progressing through [the extended bodhisattva path, that is] the ten faiths, ten abodes, ten practices, and ten dedications; there are even those others who attain no-mind only after arriving at the ten stages (bhūmi) [the culmination of the bodhisattva path]. Whether long or short, if you achieve no-mind, then it will be right there; there is nothing more you need to practice or realize. In reality, there is nothing to attain — this is true, not false. Whether you attain it in a single moment of thought or only after mastering the ten stages, both approaches are equally effective. There is no distinction in their depth or shallowness; [prolonging practice] merely entails sequential kalpas of needless bitterness and hardship.'
(Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, ch 2)

'“Buddha lands” means the inside of the eyes. If, when we see and hear the words “illuminating the East,” we assume and learn that it is as if a line of white silk were extending to the East, that is not learning of the truth. The whole universe in ten directions is nothing other than “the East.” “The East” is called “the whole universe in ten directions.” On this basis the whole universe in ten directions exists. And the words by which it proclaims itself as the whole universe in ten directions, we hear as the sound of “the eighteen thousand buddha lands.”'
(Komyo, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 295)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by seeker242 »

Orgyen wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 pm Dear members ,

I read somewhere that all those historical chan practioner attaintment were below first bhumi , true or false ?

Thanks
False. Unless the person saying such things had a time machine and went back and met all of them in person. But I doubt that has happened. :lol:
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by KeithA »

Astus wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:37 pm
KeithA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:19 pmThere are no levels in Zen. Just delusion/enlightenment.
There are various levels used by various groups/teachers, including the standard 52 levels, and also levels used exclusively in Chan, like Dongshan's five ranks, or Seung Sahn's Zen circle.
Yes, expedient teachings and all. There is also the 10 Oxherding Pictures, which very much describes stages of practice. So, I was incorrect, in as much as these kinds of teaching exist. I don't feel it's an essential part of Zen practice, though.


Interestingly, Seung Sahn's Zen Circle has delusion and awakening at the same point. The circle is taught not as stages, but points where we may find ourselves from moment to moment.

_/|\_
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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Astus
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Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard

Post by Astus »

KeithA wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:55 pmYes, expedient teachings and all.
All teachings are expedients with the primary goal of liberating beings.

Zen master Yangshan entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying: “Each and every one of you, turn the light inward! Don’t try to remember what I’m saying! For a beginningless eon you have faced away from the light and been shrouded in darkness. The roots of delusion are deep. They’re difficult to cut off and uproot. So [the Buddha] established expedient means to grab your attention. These are like showing yellow leaves to a crying child, who imagines they’re gold and thus stops crying. You act as though you’re in a shop where someone sells a hundred goods made from gold and jade, but you’re trying to weigh each item. So you say that Shitou has a real gold shop? Well in my shop there’s a wide range of goods! If someone comes looking for mouse turds then I give him some. If someone comes looking for real gold then I give it to him.”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 187)
I don't feel it's an essential part of Zen practice, though.
It depends on the practitioner whether it's important or not. Eventually, even practice is non-essential.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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