Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

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Dgj
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Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Dgj »

Scholarship shows most purported Tang Chan (Zen) texts are products if the Song dynasty.

Are there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
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Malcolm
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Malcolm »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:35 am Scholarship shows most purported Tang Chan (Zen) texts are products if the Song dynasty.

Are there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?
Definitely, since one can positively date chan texts by their translation and composition in Tibetan.
Dgj
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Dgj »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:04 pm
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:35 am Scholarship shows most purported Tang Chan (Zen) texts are products if the Song dynasty.

Are there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?
Definitely, since one can positively date chan texts by their translation and composition in Tibetan.

Thanks! Could you list some of them? I've tried searching but the ones that constantly pop up are all texts written about the Tang masters but composed in the Song.
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
Meido
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Meido »

Many, starting with the Platform scripture (Dunhuang version dated to mid 9th century, earlier versions thought to at least be mid-8th). Baizhang's and Huangbo's records believed to date to mid 9th century. The earliest Bodhidharma-attributed material in the Long Scroll to late 6th. Etc.

Someone else here more knowledgeable could provide a comprehensive list.
Dgj
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Dgj »

Meido wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:23 pm Many, starting with the Platform scripture (Dunhuang version dated to mid 9th century, earlier versions thought to at least be mid-8th). Baizhang's and Huangbo's records believed to date to mid 9th century. The earliest Bodhidharma-attributed material in the Long Scroll to late 6th. Etc.

Someone else here more knowledgeable could provide a comprehensive list.
Thanks!
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
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Astus
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Astus »

Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:35 amAre there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?
Some, but with varying degrees of editing. The Platform Sutra has already been mentioned, there are also works attributed to Bodhidharma that are early (but not as early as Bodhidharma), and there are the works of the so called Northern School, about them you can read in McRae's classic The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism. Some other notable texts:

Works from Dunhuang:
Chuan Fabao ji (傳法寶紀, c. 713)
Lengqie shizi ji (楞伽師資記, c. 712-716)
Shenhui Tanyu (神會壇語, c. 720)
Lidai Fabao Ji (歷代法寶記, c. 774-780)
Guishan Jingce (潙山警策, before 936)

Texts representative of Tang era Chan:
works of Guifeng Zongmi (780-841)
Baizhang Guanglu (百丈廣錄, early Song recompilation but assumed faithful to earlier version)
Chuanxin Fayao & Wanling Lu (傳心法要 & 宛陵錄, dated by Peixiu to 857, editing in Song but assumed faithful)
Dunwu Yaomen (頓悟要門, published in 1374 but assumed faithful to 8th c.)

For a reconstruction of the Mazu Yulu (馬祖語錄) see: The Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism by Jinhua Jia.

In general about Tang works see:
Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism by Alan Cole
The Zen Canon: Understanding the Classic Texts ed. by Steven Heine & Dale S. Wright

Focused on specific works:
The Mystique of Transmission: On an Early Chan History and Its Contexts by Wendi Leigh Adamek
Readings of the Platform Sutra by Morten Schlütter & Stephen F. Teiser
The Records of Mazu and the Making of Classical Chan Literature by Mario Poceski
The Linji Lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy: The Development of Chan's Records of Sayings Literature by Albert Welter
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Dgj
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Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?

Post by Dgj »

Astus wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:57 pm
Dgj wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:35 amAre there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?
Some, but with varying degrees of editing. The Platform Sutra has already been mentioned, there are also works attributed to Bodhidharma that are early (but not as early as Bodhidharma), and there are the works of the so called Northern School, about them you can read in McRae's classic The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism. Some other notable texts:

Works from Dunhuang:
Chuan Fabao ji (傳法寶紀, c. 713)
Lengqie shizi ji (楞伽師資記, c. 712-716)
Shenhui Tanyu (神會壇語, c. 720)
Lidai Fabao Ji (歷代法寶記, c. 774-780)
Guishan Jingce (潙山警策, before 936)

Texts representative of Tang era Chan:
works of Guifeng Zongmi (780-841)
Baizhang Guanglu (百丈廣錄, early Song recompilation but assumed faithful to earlier version)
Chuanxin Fayao & Wanling Lu (傳心法要 & 宛陵錄, dated by Peixiu to 857, editing in Song but assumed faithful)
Dunwu Yaomen (頓悟要門, published in 1374 but assumed faithful to 8th c.)

For a reconstruction of the Mazu Yulu (馬祖語錄) see: The Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism by Jinhua Jia.

In general about Tang works see:
Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism by Alan Cole
The Zen Canon: Understanding the Classic Texts ed. by Steven Heine & Dale S. Wright

Focused on specific works:
The Mystique of Transmission: On an Early Chan History and Its Contexts by Wendi Leigh Adamek
Readings of the Platform Sutra by Morten Schlütter & Stephen F. Teiser
The Records of Mazu and the Making of Classical Chan Literature by Mario Poceski
The Linji Lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy: The Development of Chan's Records of Sayings Literature by Albert Welter
Wow thank you so much!
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
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