"Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

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Astus
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Astus »

Dgj wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:18 pmThe sixth patriarch of what, though? If there was no delineated Chan school, then what was he talking about?
Shenxiu posited himself as a transmitter of Hongren's teachings, and Shenxiu's disciples claimed that he was the true sixth patriarch counting from Bodhidharma. It was Shenxiu, and especially his disciples, who began the establishment of a special lineage. Shenhui simply took the idea of lineage from Bodhidharma and exchanged Shenxiu for Huineng.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Sentient Light
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Sentient Light »

Dgj wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:51 am After that, "Chan" takes on the meaning of: A subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma. While not a separate institution, it is a word that has now taken on new meaning and is used to denote people involved with a specific lineage of Buddhist teaching going back to Bodhidharma.

Is this correct? If not, when did "Chan" stop meaning simply "Dhyana" and first take on the meaning: A subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma?
In Vietnamese Thien, and judging from what Astus is saying, I think this holds for Chan as well, the "Thien Tong" or "Meditation Tradition" does go through Bodhidharma in terms of the direct lineage. However, the lineage of patriarchs is not the only factor in what is considered part of the Thien tradition, since we also go back quite frequently to An Shigao's student, who came to Vietnam to teach Thien early on, and predates Bodhidharma by quite a while. There are also other pre-Bodhidharma lineages and teachings we study.

All of this constitutes the Thien tradition.
The sixth patriarch of what, though? If there was no delineated Chan school, then what was he talking about?
Of the lineage of Bodhidharma. It doesn't need to be a school, in and of itself. There are subtle differences between "lineage" and "school" here. There can be multiple sub-lineages and sister-lineages within a tradition/school.
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Dgj
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Dgj »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 pm
Dgj wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:51 am After that, "Chan" takes on the meaning of: A subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma. While not a separate institution, it is a word that has now taken on new meaning and is used to denote people involved with a specific lineage of Buddhist teaching going back to Bodhidharma.

Is this correct? If not, when did "Chan" stop meaning simply "Dhyana" and first take on the meaning: A subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma?
In Vietnamese Thien, and judging from what Astus is saying, I think this holds for Chan as well, the "Thien Tong" or "Meditation Tradition" does go through Bodhidharma in terms of the direct lineage. However, the lineage of patriarchs is not the only factor in what is considered part of the Thien tradition, since we also go back quite frequently to An Shigao's student, who came to Vietnam to teach Thien early on, and predates Bodhidharma by quite a while. There are also other pre-Bodhidharma lineages and teachings we study.

All of this constitutes the Thien tradition.
The sixth patriarch of what, though? If there was no delineated Chan school, then what was he talking about?
Of the lineage of Bodhidharma. It doesn't need to be a school, in and of itself. There are subtle differences between "lineage" and "school" here. There can be multiple sub-lineages and sister-lineages within a tradition/school.
Okay so the lineage of Bodhidharma was recognized at that time but wasn't called Chan. What was it called? If Shen Hui had been asked "The Southern School of what?" By someone who knew of several southern schools ranging from Taoist establishments, Confucian ones and even government training colleges (there must have been other establishments called "Southern School" at that time, as any time, and any place in history since it is just a direction and the broad meaning word "school") Would he have said "The Southern School of Bodhidharma."?

Also who was An Shigao's student? Someone teaching Thien before Bodhidharma? Isn't Thien the Vietnamese word for Chan? Wasn't Chan invented in China post Bodhidharma? This is confusing lol!
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
Sentient Light
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Sentient Light »

Dgj wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:59 pm
Okay so the lineage of Bodhidharma was recognized at that time but wasn't called Chan. What was it called? If Shen Hui had been asked "The Southern School of what?" By someone who knew of several southern schools ranging from Taoist establishments, Confucian ones and even government training colleges (there must have been other establishments called "Southern School" at that time, as any time, and any place in history since it is just a direction and the broad meaning word "school") Would he have said "The Southern School of Bodhidharma."?
Why do you think everything had labels the way you want them? I do believe, however, that Bodhidharma's lineage was referred to as "the Lanka tradition" at first. But that may actually be a later name for it.
Also who was An Shigao's student? Someone teaching Thien before Bodhidharma?
An Shigao's disciple who traveled to Vietnam to spread the dharma and meditation tradition was called Chen Hui. This happened sometime around 220CE.

There were lots of people teaching meditation before Bodhidharma.
Isn't Thien the Vietnamese word for Chan?
Thien is the Vietnamese word for Chan is the Chinese word for Dhyana is the Sanskrit word for meditation.
Wasn't Chan invented in China post Bodhidharma? This is confusing lol!
I feel like you literally just forgot everything that was being discussed the past few posts. Suffice to say, no, you have a misconception and are confusing the Chan tradition as a whole with the Chan lineage that comes down to us through Bodhidharma.

The Chan tradition as a whole is broader and refers to all the Chan lineages and teachings as we have currently received them. That means that even though we might be in Bodhidharma's *direct lineage*, that is not an excuse to not study the rest of Chan, including sister-lineages and lineages that came before Bodhidharma.

Please recognize that "Chan" means meditation. If we're talking about the lineage of Chan patriarchs, we are talking about the legendary lineages that come down to us through Bodhidharma and the other patriarchs. But these things do not always refer to the same thing, and viewing 'Chan' as a monolithic entity is an incorrect perspective.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
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Dgj
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Dgj »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:33 pm
Dgj wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:59 pm
Okay so the lineage of Bodhidharma was recognized at that time but wasn't called Chan. What was it called? If Shen Hui had been asked "The Southern School of what?" By someone who knew of several southern schools ranging from Taoist establishments, Confucian ones and even government training colleges (there must have been other establishments called "Southern School" at that time, as any time, and any place in history since it is just a direction and the broad meaning word "school") Would he have said "The Southern School of Bodhidharma."?
Why do you think everything had labels the way you want them? I do believe, however, that Bodhidharma's lineage was referred to as "the Lanka tradition" at first. But that may actually be a later name for it.
Also who was An Shigao's student? Someone teaching Thien before Bodhidharma?
An Shigao's disciple who traveled to Vietnam to spread the dharma and meditation tradition was called Chen Hui. This happened sometime around 220CE.

There were lots of people teaching meditation before Bodhidharma.
Isn't Thien the Vietnamese word for Chan?
Thien is the Vietnamese word for Chan is the Chinese word for Dhyana is the Sanskrit word for meditation.
Wasn't Chan invented in China post Bodhidharma? This is confusing lol!
I feel like you literally just forgot everything that was being discussed the past few posts. Suffice to say, no, you have a misconception and are confusing the Chan tradition as a whole with the Chan lineage that comes down to us through Bodhidharma.

The Chan tradition as a whole is broader and refers to all the Chan lineages and teachings as we have currently received them. That means that even though we might be in Bodhidharma's *direct lineage*, that is not an excuse to not study the rest of Chan, including sister-lineages and lineages that came before Bodhidharma.

Please recognize that "Chan" means meditation. If we're talking about the lineage of Chan patriarchs, we are talking about the legendary lineages that come down to us through Bodhidharma and the other patriarchs. But these things do not always refer to the same thing, and viewing 'Chan' as a monolithic entity is an incorrect perspective.
Thank you.

Apologies for my post if it was confusing. Your use of these words is new to me and I think that's what's so confusing. I didn't forget the conversation but rather your wording is not the standard in these kinds of discussions. I will try to explain:

I've read many books on Chan Buddhism and no scholar mentions Chen Hui as a pre Bodhidharma Chan teacher in this context, so that puzzled me. All scholarly works I know of consider Chan as a Chinese tradition until it spread elsewhere.

The mainstream majority of scholars do not consider pre Bodhidharma figures as Chan teachers in this context. Further, in the context of discussing Chan Buddhism, the majority of modern scholars use Thien as the title for the Vietnamese version of Chinese Chan that spread from China.

The literal definition of the word is irrelevant in the study of what is known as Chan Buddhism, as the word is used to denote the lineage of Bodhidharma. This isn't simply my opinion, but rather that of the academic community in general, again, in this specific context of discussing what is commonly known as Chan Buddhism.

This is particularly the case in this sub forum, as it is for the discussion of Chan Buddhism, where Chan does not denote simply meditation, but rather a particular subset of Chinese Buddhism. Were we discussing in the meditation sub forum, then my confusion would be slightly less reasonable lol! However, here seems to be the place to safely assume the word Chan means Chinese Chan Buddhism and schools that descend from it like Zen, Seon and Thien.
Don't assume my words are correct. Do your research.

"Quarrel with the evidence of everyday experience, and afterward we will rely on the winner."
-Chandrakirti
Sentient Light
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by Sentient Light »

Dgj wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:58 pm Thank you.

Apologies for my post if it was confusing. Your use of these words is new to me and I think that's what's so confusing. I didn't forget the conversation but rather your wording is not the standard in these kinds of discussions. I will try to explain:

I've read many books on Chan Buddhism and no scholar mentions Chen Hui as a pre Bodhidharma Chan teacher in this context, so that puzzled me. All scholarly works I know of consider Chan as a Chinese tradition until it spread elsewhere.

The mainstream majority of scholars do not consider pre Bodhidharma figures as Chan teachers in this context. Further, in the context of discussing Chan Buddhism, the majority of modern scholars use Thien as the title for the Vietnamese version of Chinese Chan that spread from China.
You're using "Chan" in the western context. I am using "Chan" or "Thien" in the Asian context to refer to "meditation." Maybe I should try something like this: Chen Hui was a thien teacher, but not a Thien teacher? That distinction doesn't exist in Vietnamese, but I feel like I need a way to distinguish the Bodhidharma lineage of Chan from meditation in general, for you, but if I were to use "Chan" and "meditation," I think you'd just be left with the same misconceptions you started with.
The literal definition of the word is irrelevant in the study of what is known as Chan Buddhism, as the word is used to denote the lineage of Bodhidharma. This isn't simply my opinion, but rather that of the academic community in general, again, in this specific context of discussing what is commonly known as Chan Buddhism.
The academic community of white people, maybe.
This is particularly the case in this sub forum, as it is for the discussion of Chan Buddhism, where Chan does not denote simply meditation, but rather a particular subset of Chinese Buddhism. Were we discussing in the meditation sub forum, then my confusion would be slightly less reasonable lol! However, here seems to be the place to safely assume the word Chan means Chinese Chan Buddhism and schools that descend from it like Zen, Seon and Thien.
No, sorry, you misunderstand again. This still all falls under what we consider the Thien tradition, in the same way that I would recognize a Caodong teacher, despite being part of a Linji lineage. Chen Hui is not part of our lineage, but his teachings are important to study within the tradition. The difference is effectively what is part of the tradition as a whole, and what is part of the living lineage. There may be no direct lineage from An Shigao/Chen Hui that survives, but they still remain an important part of the Chan curriculum.

But the original point of the thread is broader still, and is pointing to the fact that Chan is not technically an institutionally distinct school of thought in East Asian Mahayana, but a vocation of study and practice within East Asian Mahayana that is itself delineated into separate lineage transmissions.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
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gedatsu
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Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Post by gedatsu »

FWIW:
"The reader should bear this point in mind: In contrast to the independent denominations of Sōtō and Rinzai that emerged (largely by government fiat) in seventeenth-century Japan, there was never any such thing as an institutionally separate Chan “school” at any time in Chinese Buddhist history." ~ John R. McRae, Seeing through Zen: Encounter, Transformation, and Genealogy in Chinese Chan Buddhism (Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 2003), 122
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