How difference between Chan and Zen.

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LastLegend
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:59 am So where do you get the idea that this is absent in Japanese Zen?
In my mind.
It’s eye blinking.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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My understanding is both are the same.

There's a Guanyin method no longer in practise in the Chinese world; mentioned in old records and from old memories, but was later found still in practise in Japan. It was well-preserved. Hence, this method was 'invited' back
SeekNothing
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pm
KeithA wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:17 am So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice.
They (lay Asians) generally do not practice meditation. They light incense, bow, and do a little chanting. That's about it.

Meditation is the job of religious professionals. And, I read an interesting book recently, Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice. It emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
Is this really true? My experience has been with one of the Taiwan Chan groups, but they certainly emphasize meditation, and their origin is in Asia (and in the US the majority of the lay sangha is Asian, and all the monks I have seen). If you mean Japanese Zen specifically then I have no idea. But I also know devout people in mainland China that mediate frequently as well.

Is it the case that it depends more on the organization or tradition than the country?

Are people making a distinction here between Chan and Zen but then lumping Seon and Thein together with Zen?
Matylda
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Matylda »

SeekNothing wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pm
KeithA wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:17 am So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice.
They (lay Asians) generally do not practice meditation. They light incense, bow, and do a little chanting. That's about it.

Meditation is the job of religious professionals. And, I read an interesting book recently, Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice. It emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
Is this really true? My experience has been with one of the Taiwan Chan groups, but they certainly emphasize meditation, and their origin is in Asia (and in the US the majority of the lay sangha is Asian, and all the monks I have seen). If you mean Japanese Zen specifically then I have no idea. But I also know devout people in mainland China that mediate frequently as well.

Is it the case that it depends more on the organization or tradition than the country?

Are people making a distinction here between Chan and Zen but then lumping Seon and Thein together with Zen?
Most of the zen temples in Japan have no zazen at all... some may have once a month, more zazen oriented may have once a week. Rituals are either funeral, or some may have go-kito, special rituals of protection, good luck etc. but then temple must have some history connected to it, or the abbot underwent special training, either in another zen monastery or even somewhere else, like in shingon temple or tendai.
Both funerals and go-kito give good income to the temple. Otherwise temples may have some special prayer days on monthly or annual schedule, but mostly they serve only local parish. Some have famous festivals, but such are very few, mostly temple festivals are rather small events. These famous of course give substantial income.

Very old temples may be lucky if the family of the founder is still continued and not extinct. If such noble family is in good financial position it is not unusual that they will support its family temple, since they feel obliged and it is their duty. I talk about old aristocracy, daimyo's temple, some rich samurai families etc.

Why I write about income etc.? since to keep a temple takes hell a lot of money. It is very costly. Any small repearation of old buildings costs fortune since one needs very good specialists who have skills in temple carpentry it costs a few times more then normal labor of that kind.

Of course there are tmeples which are devoted to zazen. But there are about 18000 temples in Japan of all 3 schools so I guess that there will be maybe like 100-200 all over country with more zazen or everyday zazen.
Malcolm
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Malcolm »

SeekNothing wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pm
KeithA wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:17 am So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice.
They (lay Asians) generally do not practice meditation. They light incense, bow, and do a little chanting. That's about it.

Meditation is the job of religious professionals. And, I read an interesting book recently, Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice. It emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
Is this really true? My experience has been with one of the Taiwan Chan groups, but they certainly emphasize meditation, and their origin is in Asia (and in the US the majority of the lay sangha is Asian, and all the monks I have seen). If you mean Japanese Zen specifically then I have no idea. But I also know devout people in mainland China that mediate frequently as well.

Is it the case that it depends more on the organization or tradition than the country?

Are people making a distinction here between Chan and Zen but then lumping Seon and Thein together with Zen?
The largest group of Asian Buddhists in the US are pure landers. And among the Thai, etc., Theravadin communities, mostly lay people use the Sangha as a support for dana.
PeterC
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by PeterC »

SeekNothing wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pm
KeithA wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:17 am So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice.
They (lay Asians) generally do not practice meditation. They light incense, bow, and do a little chanting. That's about it.

Meditation is the job of religious professionals. And, I read an interesting book recently, Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice. It emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
Is this really true? My experience has been with one of the Taiwan Chan groups, but they certainly emphasize meditation, and their origin is in Asia (and in the US the majority of the lay sangha is Asian, and all the monks I have seen). If you mean Japanese Zen specifically then I have no idea. But I also know devout people in mainland China that mediate frequently as well.

Is it the case that it depends more on the organization or tradition than the country?

Are people making a distinction here between Chan and Zen but then lumping Seon and Thein together with Zen?
Generally but not exclusively true. If you define "lay Asians" as "anyone who will refer to themselves as Buddhist if asked" then it's overwhelmingly true. And in every monastic lineage you will always have a large number of lay practitioners who don't really practice/study but get involved more in supporting the monastery, and this is more culturally normal in Asian societies. This is just the reality of running a monastery, you need lay sponsors or you have to shut down.

There are differences in vocabulary and concepts between modern Zen and Chan schools, because every lineage is in dialog with a specific set of texts, and the more those texts differ, the less those lineages can really be in a dialog with each other. What matters most, though, is the differences or similarities in their approaches to training, and that's a bit difficult to talk about unless you've been through both in an intensive setting (which some modern Chan masters have, as a few have spent meaningful time training in Zen monasteries in Japan). But training approaches, it's not even very helpful to try to generalize about "Chan" because at least by the time of Xuyun it was extremely fragmented as a practice lineage. It still is today, really. You can only really talk about what one particular school or teacher does.

So as always, it depends.
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

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Matylda wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:25 pm Most of the zen temples in Japan have no zazen at all... some may have once a month, more zazen oriented may have once a week.
This is a common myth and I would like to see a source for it.

Zazen is held at almost every zen temple I have looked into, maybe one or two exceptions. If I wanted to practice daily zazen here in Japan at one it would be no problem, even during Covid.

Malcolm is right though that most laity (if they even consider themselves Buddhists) are just going to do sightseeing and drop a 5 yen coin in the donation box. Many people are unsure if a temple is a shrine or not.
Matylda
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Matylda »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:44 am
Matylda wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:25 pm Most of the zen temples in Japan have no zazen at all... some may have once a month, more zazen oriented may have once a week.
This is a common myth and I would like to see a source for it.

Zazen is held at almost every zen temple I have looked into, maybe one or two exceptions. If I wanted to practice daily zazen here in Japan at one it would be no problem, even during Covid.

Malcolm is right though that most laity (if they even consider themselves Buddhists) are just going to do sightseeing and drop a 5 yen coin in the donation box. Many people are unsure if a temple is a shrine or not.
https://sotozen-navi.com/index.cfm if they have zazen, then mostly you will have chance once a week, many do not have zazen at all, if you have time to check the list, but i think it is not worth
https://my-best.com/6767 here are those most popular, zazen mostly once or twice a week...

On some of the pix I could see people whom I know, and those are zazen freaks, who just travel around Tokyo to catch up with zazenkai at different locations.

You can hardly find temples offering everday zazen.. but there are some, however there are only a few in Tokyo proper and the area.
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Zhen Li
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

Matylda wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 am https://sotozen-navi.com/index.cfm if they have zazen, then mostly you will have chance once a week, many do not have zazen at all, if you have time to check the list, but i think it is not worth
https://my-best.com/6767 here are those most popular, zazen mostly once or twice a week...

On some of the pix I could see people whom I know, and those are zazen freaks, who just travel around Tokyo to catch up with zazenkai at different locations.

You can hardly find temples offering everday zazen.. but there are some, however there are only a few in Tokyo proper and the area.
With a lot of them you really have to go to the gate and check on the signpost. Not all of them keep an active presence online. Anyway, there are temples which offer it daily, and while you get people who only show up once, there are many of the same people who sit everyday. There are some which seem to have closed membership.
Matylda
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Matylda »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:49 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 am https://sotozen-navi.com/index.cfm if they have zazen, then mostly you will have chance once a week, many do not have zazen at all, if you have time to check the list, but i think it is not worth
https://my-best.com/6767 here are those most popular, zazen mostly once or twice a week...

On some of the pix I could see people whom I know, and those are zazen freaks, who just travel around Tokyo to catch up with zazenkai at different locations.

You can hardly find temples offering everday zazen.. but there are some, however there are only a few in Tokyo proper and the area.
With a lot of them you really have to go to the gate and check on the signpost. Not all of them keep an active presence online. Anyway, there are temples which offer it daily, and while you get people who only show up once, there are many of the same people who sit everyday. There are some which seem to have closed membership.
You asked me for the source, so I did give you. I know all hose top temples in Tokyo which offer zazen/ Sp please be so kind and give your list of those temples which have extensive zazen schedule for lay people. It will be good to know them.
Matylda
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Matylda »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:49 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 am https://sotozen-navi.com/index.cfm if they have zazen, then mostly you will have chance once a week, many do not have zazen at all, if you have time to check the list, but i think it is not worth
https://my-best.com/6767 here are those most popular, zazen mostly once or twice a week...

On some of the pix I could see people whom I know, and those are zazen freaks, who just travel around Tokyo to catch up with zazenkai at different locations.

You can hardly find temples offering everday zazen.. but there are some, however there are only a few in Tokyo proper and the area.
With a lot of them you really have to go to the gate and check on the signpost. Not all of them keep an active presence online. Anyway, there are temples which offer it daily, and while you get people who only show up once, there are many of the same people who sit everyday. There are some which seem to have closed membership.
You asked me for the source, so I did give you. I know all those top temples in Tokyo which offer zazen, and actually in the info is written as it is, if once a week zazen then indeed they do so, I did not find any contradiction. BTW please be so kind and give your list of those temples which have extensive zazen schedule for lay people. It will be good to know them.
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Zhen Li
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Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

Matylda wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:12 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:49 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 am https://sotozen-navi.com/index.cfm if they have zazen, then mostly you will have chance once a week, many do not have zazen at all, if you have time to check the list, but i think it is not worth
https://my-best.com/6767 here are those most popular, zazen mostly once or twice a week...

On some of the pix I could see people whom I know, and those are zazen freaks, who just travel around Tokyo to catch up with zazenkai at different locations.

You can hardly find temples offering everday zazen.. but there are some, however there are only a few in Tokyo proper and the area.
With a lot of them you really have to go to the gate and check on the signpost. Not all of them keep an active presence online. Anyway, there are temples which offer it daily, and while you get people who only show up once, there are many of the same people who sit everyday. There are some which seem to have closed membership.
You asked me for the source, so I did give you. I know all those top temples in Tokyo which offer zazen, and actually in the info is written as it is, if once a week zazen then indeed they do so, I did not find any contradiction. BTW please be so kind and give your list of those temples which have extensive zazen schedule for lay people. It will be good to know them.
What your links show is that there is a lot of zazen offered in Tokyo, all I am responding to is your claim that most zen temples have no zazen at all. You can search individual temples and check their websites. I would say all have zazen, but not all are open to the lay public. As for Kamakura Engakuji still offers daily zazen and sometimes multiple sessions a day. Kenchoji has suspended regular zazen during corona but usually has a lot, Tokeiji and Hokokuji have it every Sunday, and Ofuna Kannonji, which is Soto, holds zaezn but I am not sure of the schedule. :coffee:
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