How difference between Chan and Zen.

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by KeithA »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:26 pm One point that I might add is that Zen in the West is different to Zen in East Asia. At a typical Western Zen centre, the main practice is meditation, with maybe a bit of chanting thrown in.

In East Asia (my experience is from Korea mostly), meditation is only part of Zen. At a typical Korean Seon (Korean for 'Zen') temple, most of the practices are chanting. From the couple of public services I attended, they mostly seemed to be focused on reciting various texts. Also, at my local Chinese temple (Linji Lineage) here in NZ, the services are also just mostly recitation of texts (Heart Sutra, Amitabha Sutra/88 Buddhas Great Repentance Service, Great Compassion Dharani etc).

So it seems to me that Western Zen centres have taken the meditation aspect of Zen and placed it front and center, unlike how it is in East Asia (but then, this is from my limited experience).

If you have in your town a Chinese Chan temple, a Vietnamese Thien temple or a Korean Seon temple, you could attend those and see how they differ to a Western Zen centre. Be warned though: some of the monks or nuns who serve temples in Western countries speak little or no English as they primarily minister to people from their own country/culture who speak the same language.
The focus on meditation occurred because that’s what the Asian teachers brought here.

Being close to Yale University, we have Asian folks come to practice and it usually doesn’t go well, precisely because of what you described. I have personally witnessed, on multiple occasions, Asian folks just getting and walking out.We sit. A lot. They simply don’t recognize it. But that’s what our Korean teacher taught us to do, and that’s what has been going on for close to 50 years.

Having said all that, our community is pretty diverse, both in terms of age and race.

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center
Malcolm
Posts: 35124
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Malcolm »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:26 pm
So it seems to me that Western Zen centres have taken the meditation aspect of Zen and placed it front and center, unlike how it is in East Asia (but then, this is from my limited experience).
Differing client populations need different things.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

KeithA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:51 pm
KiwiNFLFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:26 pm One point that I might add is that Zen in the West is different to Zen in East Asia. At a typical Western Zen centre, the main practice is meditation, with maybe a bit of chanting thrown in.

In East Asia (my experience is from Korea mostly), meditation is only part of Zen. At a typical Korean Seon (Korean for 'Zen') temple, most of the practices are chanting. From the couple of public services I attended, they mostly seemed to be focused on reciting various texts. Also, at my local Chinese temple (Linji Lineage) here in NZ, the services are also just mostly recitation of texts (Heart Sutra, Amitabha Sutra/88 Buddhas Great Repentance Service, Great Compassion Dharani etc).

So it seems to me that Western Zen centres have taken the meditation aspect of Zen and placed it front and center, unlike how it is in East Asia (but then, this is from my limited experience).

If you have in your town a Chinese Chan temple, a Vietnamese Thien temple or a Korean Seon temple, you could attend those and see how they differ to a Western Zen centre. Be warned though: some of the monks or nuns who serve temples in Western countries speak little or no English as they primarily minister to people from their own country/culture who speak the same language.
The focus on meditation occurred because that’s what the Asian teachers brought here.

Being close to Yale University, we have Asian folks come to practice and it usually doesn’t go well, precisely because of what you described. I have personally witnessed, on multiple occasions, Asian folks just getting and walking out.We sit. A lot. They simply don’t recognize it. But that’s what our Korean teacher taught us to do, and that’s what has been going on for close to 50 years.

Having said all that, our community is pretty diverse, both in terms of age and race.

_/|\_
Keith
Could you clarify what makes the Asian participants walk out? Is it that they are expecting chanting or a lecture?

I wonder if the emphasis on sitting comes from the heavy Japanese focus that early Western exposure had to Zen.

Here at the Rinzai temples in Kamakura the main focus is definitely zazen. This is also the main focus whenever there are lay participants. Monastics engage in chanting ceremonies daily of course, but a large number of those are behind closed doors. A few large public ones, like the Daihannya Tendoku, are performed only at new years. I have not participated in sesshin here (and they are not really being held due to corona) so it may occur there, but I am not sure how often the laity actually do recitation...

As for Soto, my experience is limited but I have practiced at one Soto temple, it is clear that the emphasis is on zazen, especially when we are just talking about the laity. Again, as with Rinzai, they do chant, but I'm not sure how common this is for the laity...

I think outside of Japan, it is best not to generalise because there will always be exceptions, but I think it is definitely true that zazen is not a high priority. This was my experience with Fo Guang Shan, where some monastics only meditated once a year in a two week retreat. If you tried sitting daily in the meditation hall, people don't really know what to do with you because it just never happens. For those who meditate intensively it seems like they had to do it on their beds...
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:30 am
I think outside of Japan, it is best not to generalise because there will always be exceptions, but I think it is definitely true that zazen is not a high priority. This was my experience with Fo Guang Shan, where some monastics only meditated once a year in a two week retreat. If you tried sitting daily in the meditation hall, people don't really know what to do with you because it just never happens. For those who meditate intensively it seems like they had to do it on their beds...
Fo Guang Shan isn't really zen, in my opinion. I think they're more pure land and service oriented, with zen sprinkled in.
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by KeithA »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:30 am
KeithA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:51 pm
KiwiNFLFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:26 pm One point that I might add is that Zen in the West is different to Zen in East Asia. At a typical Western Zen centre, the main practice is meditation, with maybe a bit of chanting thrown in.

In East Asia (my experience is from Korea mostly), meditation is only part of Zen. At a typical Korean Seon (Korean for 'Zen') temple, most of the practices are chanting. From the couple of public services I attended, they mostly seemed to be focused on reciting various texts. Also, at my local Chinese temple (Linji Lineage) here in NZ, the services are also just mostly recitation of texts (Heart Sutra, Amitabha Sutra/88 Buddhas Great Repentance Service, Great Compassion Dharani etc).

So it seems to me that Western Zen centres have taken the meditation aspect of Zen and placed it front and center, unlike how it is in East Asia (but then, this is from my limited experience).

If you have in your town a Chinese Chan temple, a Vietnamese Thien temple or a Korean Seon temple, you could attend those and see how they differ to a Western Zen centre. Be warned though: some of the monks or nuns who serve temples in Western countries speak little or no English as they primarily minister to people from their own country/culture who speak the same language.
The focus on meditation occurred because that’s what the Asian teachers brought here.

Being close to Yale University, we have Asian folks come to practice and it usually doesn’t go well, precisely because of what you described. I have personally witnessed, on multiple occasions, Asian folks just getting and walking out.We sit. A lot. They simply don’t recognize it. But that’s what our Korean teacher taught us to do, and that’s what has been going on for close to 50 years.

Having said all that, our community is pretty diverse, both in terms of age and race.

_/|\_
Keith
Could you clarify what makes the Asian participants walk out? Is it that they are expecting chanting or a lecture?

I wonder if the emphasis on sitting comes from the heavy Japanese focus that early Western exposure had to Zen.

Here at the Rinzai temples in Kamakura the main focus is definitely zazen. This is also the main focus whenever there are lay participants. Monastics engage in chanting ceremonies daily of course, but a large number of those are behind closed doors. A few large public ones, like the Daihannya Tendoku, are performed only at new years. I have not participated in sesshin here (and they are not really being held due to corona) so it may occur there, but I am not sure how often the laity actually do recitation...

As for Soto, my experience is limited but I have practiced at one Soto temple, it is clear that the emphasis is on zazen, especially when we are just talking about the laity. Again, as with Rinzai, they do chant, but I'm not sure how common this is for the laity...

I think outside of Japan, it is best not to generalise because there will always be exceptions, but I think it is definitely true that zazen is not a high priority. This was my experience with Fo Guang Shan, where some monastics only meditated once a year in a two week retreat. If you tried sitting daily in the meditation hall, people don't really know what to do with you because it just never happens. For those who meditate intensively it seems like they had to do it on their beds...
Hi Zhen Li,

I hope you are not offended by remark. No offense intended.

Our typical evening service is a half an hour chanting, followed by two thirty minute periods of sitting. On Sunday we sit four thirties, with ten minutes of chanting at the end. Covid has changed all that, but we are close to being able to return.

So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice. We have plenty of Asian Americans practicing with us, but the practice seems a bit alien to some of the native Asian folks. There is a lot of cultural stuff swirling around this. I know we have offended native Asians on occasion due to our own ignorance of customs. It is what it is. We try to be accommodating, while sticking with the practice we were taught.

Our tradition is based on Korean Chogye Order practice, modified by ZM Seung Sahn to fit what he perceived to Western sensibilities. I always get a chuckle out the "Western Buddhism" hand - wringing that goes on. Who taught us this stuff? It was Asian masters! Ah well, I feel like I am approaching rant stage, so I will quit while I am ahead! :toilet:

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center
Malcolm
Posts: 35124
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Malcolm »

KeithA wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:17 am So, I am not sure why some native Asians seem to struggle with our practice.
They (lay Asians) generally do not practice meditation. They light incense, bow, and do a little chanting. That's about it.

Meditation is the job of religious professionals. And, I read an interesting book recently, Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice. It emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8165
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pmIt emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
'In Japan today, seated meditation is only practiced in a few large monasteries. In most Zen temples, as in the temples of other sects, priests spend most of their time carrying out funeral rituals for their parishioners. With the spread of Zen Buddhism throughout Europe and the United States, there has been a trend towards ignoring the more religious and ritualistic aspects of Zen and focusing instead on its technical aspects, thereby subjecting zazen to the same treatment as Indian yoga.'
(Unmasking Buddhism by B. Faure, p 78)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by clyde »

Regarding meditation for lay practitioners in China and Japan versus in the West, a few factors might contribute to the differences today; specifically the circumstances of when Chan/Zen was introduced into China/Japan versus the West (more leisure time), the needs and expectations of the lay practitioners, and of course, continuing cultural habits.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

Astus wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:29 pmIt emphasized the fact that in many respects, in Zen temples in Japan, there was a lot of less meditation than one might expect, and that a large portion of temple activities were oriented towards ministering to the needs of the lay population with various kinds of rituals.
'In Japan today, seated meditation is only practiced in a few large monasteries. In most Zen temples, as in the temples of other sects, priests spend most of their time carrying out funeral rituals for their parishioners. With the spread of Zen Buddhism throughout Europe and the United States, there has been a trend towards ignoring the more religious and ritualistic aspects of Zen and focusing instead on its technical aspects, thereby subjecting zazen to the same treatment as Indian yoga.'
(Unmasking Buddhism by B. Faure, p 78)
It could be outdated information or poorly researched but there’s not a whole lot of ritual that the average lay person can be involved with other than zazen. Funerals only happen ever so often for most people. The primary ritual with which regular attendees at the local zen temples in Japan engage with IS zazen.

The exception are family temples where the owner doesn’t open the doors except on holidays or for funerals. But that’s definitely more common for Shingon and Tendai temples. Every zen temple I know of here has regular zazen practices either open to the public or members.

By the way, about Faure’s book. It’s without any citations at all and contains several glaring issues. Take it with a large grain of salt. I can back up my claims, being surrounded by zen temples on all sides here. Not everything you hear or read in books is true.
Last edited by Zhen Li on Sat May 08, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:47 am Fo Guang Shan isn't really zen, in my opinion. I think they're more pure land and service oriented, with zen sprinkled in.
The Pure Land elements are sprinkled in even more sparsely than the zen elements. I’ve seen plenty of lectures on chan stories or masters there, but never heard one about Pure Land. In terms of practice, there’s a Pure Land practice shrine but it’s quite hard to locate if you’re not looking for it. The daily services have recitations from various scriptures, which are shared in common with other Linji chan sects, but the pure land sutras are only recited from time to time. Overall I think there’s little awareness there of the pure land tradition and how it has been understood historically.

Essentially at FGS pure land is understood in zen terms: pure mind is pure land. But the “this worldliness” of zen is taken to the extreme by treating major events and occasions as opportunities to allow people to encounter the Dharma and plant seeds. Charity, fundraisers, education initiatives, etc are the focus, and meditation practice of any kind is sidelined. There’s also some rhetoric there about how if you just meditate all day you won’t be able to help others and be a bodhisattva. The goal there is to turn this world into a pure land.

For me, I couldn’t buy into it because I believe this world is samsara. The way to help others is really to attain buddhahood, and if we focus our time on impermanent things then making good affinities isn’t so effective. The fastest way to buddhahood is the pure land path, so focusing more on the pure land wouldn’t be a bad idea for FGS. I think they need to do one thing and do it well: if it’s zen, then there needs to be actual zen practice and not just faffing. If it’s pure land then there needs to be more focus on studying the sutras and commentaries of that tradition, which wasn’t really happening as far as I saw. In short I think it’s easier just to call FGS what they claim they are first and foremost, which is neither zen nor pure land but humanistic Buddhism.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Chan can be unified with Pure Land well.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Even direct contemplation of Avalokiteshvara it itself if done properly is Chan and Pure Land.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Most temples in Vietnam follow Pure Land...lay practitioners gather to hear dharma talk about how to live morally and live happily. They don’t usually meditate unless the temple is specifically zen. Same in the US. But what do I know I don’t go to the temple. However, there is a large lay practitioners of Chan in Vietnam...not sure if they go to the temple. They have groups on Facebook for discussion...I don’t participate anymore because they are full of themselves :lol: which explain a lot about myself. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

What makes Chan distinct from Japan Zen and Seon is the mentioning of mahaprajna in various Chan texts by Patriarchs (allegedly).
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

It is a bit of a different topic than this thread, but I think the identification of pure land practices with Chan is coming more from the Chan side than the Pure Land side.

It does not do much for a Pure Land practitioner to label one's practice Chan or Zen, if anything, it adds extra unnecessary baggage.

But as Shinran Shōnin suggested, at the end of the day, practitioners of all other sects aspire to birth in the Pure Land, knowing that their various practices have not been sufficient for Buddhahood in one lifetime. Master Hsing Yun also said once that is too difficult to attain enlightenment anymore, so we should just aspire for birth in the Pure Land. At the end of the day, I think most FGS practitioners and monastics are aspiring for birth, but it is not the primary practice and not on the front of most peoples' mind as it would be at a Pure Land temple. I don't know if anyone there sees contemplation practices as Chan, or does them, but I think it might make sense for a Chan practitioner to do that.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:08 am It is a bit of a different topic than this thread, but I think the identification of pure land practices with Chan is coming more from the Chan side than the Pure Land side.

It does not do much for a Pure Land practitioner to label one's practice Chan or Zen, if anything, it adds extra unnecessary baggage.
No...it’s still on topic because it’s characteristics of Chan versus strictly Zen or Seon of Japan and Korea.

It’s correct Pure Land doesn’t need Chan. Chan is not easy but not that difficult either given proper understanding of mahaprajna (which is unique to Chan literature) and not much discussed in Zen or Seon...that’s just my thought.

I don't know if anyone there sees contemplation practices as Chan, or does them, but I think it might make sense for a Chan practitioner to do that.
Well the Mahayana ideal of all Buddhas is understood through other power which in general sense it’s the ability of Buddhas to lead sentient beings so that they become awakened. It’s the work of Buddhas.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

LastLegend wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:19 am Chan is not easy but not that difficult either given proper understanding of mahaprajna (which is unique to Chan literature) and not much discussed in Zen or Seon...that’s just my thought.
You probably need to go into some more detail about the unique Chan understanding of mahāprajñā, which, of course is present in Japanese zen literature but perhaps not in the same way.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

“I don't know if anyone there sees contemplation practices as Chan, or does them, but I think it might make sense for a Chan practitioner to do that.”

What makes a contemplation Chan is the direct understanding of mind...it’s not thinking. Versus chanting...Chan would ask what is doing the chanting...contemplation has to be honest I know in saying this will offend a lot of people on here because contemplation is going to mind ground. Which essentially carving away most of what we have learned previously and keeping the essential.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by LastLegend »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:29 am
LastLegend wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:19 am Chan is not easy but not that difficult either given proper understanding of mahaprajna (which is unique to Chan literature) and not much discussed in Zen or Seon...that’s just my thought.
You probably need to go into some more detail about the unique Chan understanding of mahāprajñā, which, of course is present in Japanese zen literature but perhaps not in the same way.
From https://terebess.hu/zen/platform-sutra.pdf

“24. Good friends, now that you have finished taking refuge in the Three Treasures, each of you should clear your mind, and I will convey to you the teaching of Maha Prajnaparamita. Good friends, you may have chanted this without understanding it. But if you listen, I will explain it.
Maha Prajnaparamita is Sanskrit. In our language it means ‘The Great Wisdom That Leads to the Other Shore.’ This teaching must be practiced and not simply chanted with your mouth. If you chant it with your mouth but don’t practice it, it’s like an illusion or a mirage. But the dharma body of those who practice it is the same as a buddha’s.
What does maha mean? Maha means ‘great.’ The capacity of the mind is so great, it’s like space. But if you practice Empty-mind Zen, you will fall into a featureless void. In this world of ours, space has room for the sun and the moon and the stars, the earth and its mountains and rivers, every plant and tree, bad people and good people, bad teachings and good teachings, heavens and hells. All of this exists in space. The

emptiness of our nature is also like this.
25. Our nature contains the ten thousand dharmas. That’s how great it is. And the ten thousand dharmas are our nature. To see humans and non-humans, both the good and the bad, good dharmas and bad dharmas, without rejecting them and without being corrupted by them, this is to be like space. This is what we mean by ‘great.’ This is what maha means.
Deluded people chant this with their mouths, the wise practice it with their minds. There are also deluded people who call having an empty mind and not thinking ‘great.’ But that isn’t how this works. The capacity of the mind is great, but if you don’t use it, it’s small. If you merely talk about emptiness with your mouth, but you don’t practice this practice, you’re no disciple of mine.
26. What does prajna mean? Prajna means ‘wisdom.’ At all times to keep your thoughts free of ignorance and always to practice wisdom, this is what we mean by the practice of prajna. One thought of ignorance, and prajna stops. One thought of wisdom, and prajna reappears. A person whose mind is full of ignorance says ‘I’m practicing prajna.’ But prajna has no form. It’s the nature of wisdom.
And what does paramita mean? This is Sanskrit. In our language, we say ‘what leads to the other shore,’ which means what transcends birth and death. When we are attached to objects, we give rise to birth and death, like when waves form on the water. This is what we mean by ‘this shore.’ When we are free of objects, there is no birth or death, like when a river flows on forever. So we say this ‘leads to the other shore.’ This is what we mean by paramita.”

“Our nature is pure like the clear sky above, and our wisdom is like the sun and the moon, our wisdom is always shining. But if externally we become attached to objects, the clouds of delusion cover up our nature, and we can’t see it. Then, because we meet a good friend who explains the true teaching, our delusions are blown away and everything inside and outside becomes perfectly clear, and the ten thousand dharmas in this

nature of ours all appear. This nature of ours in which the ten thousand dharmas are present is what we mean by the pure dharma body. Those of you who take refuge in yourselves, if you get rid of bad thoughts and bad practices, this is called taking refuge.”
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: How difference between Chan and Zen.

Post by Zhen Li »

So where do you get the idea that this is absent in Japanese Zen?
Post Reply

Return to “Chan”