The History behind the transition from Adi-Buddha Samantabhadra to Vajradhara

[SubduerOfNegativity]

I haven't been able to find much information on this other than just that fact.

So, when, how, and why? Did the Sarma schools do this conciously to distance themselves from the Nyingma; or is it from a certain source in the New Tantras? etc.

Thank you!

[zerwe]

I am not sure as to the reasoning why the emphasis from the Sarma schools is on Vajradhara and the Nyingma on Samantabhadra. I am pretty sure they can be viewed as one and the same.

Perhaps the context doesn't fit here, but in another thread Malcom points out "nirmanakāya Śākyamuni Buddha is an emanation of sambhogakāya Vajradhara. Vajradhara is an emanation of the dharmakāya Samantabhadra."

And, if the three bodies are to be viewed as one, then perhaps it is as simple as that.

I am sure someone else will chime in and have more informative details surrounding this.

Shaun

[SubduerOfNegativity]

I am not sure as to the reasoning why the emphasis from the Sarma schools is on Vajradhara and the Nyingma on Samantabhadra. I am pretty sure they can be viewed as one and the same.

Perhaps the context doesn't fit here, but in another thread Malcom points out "nirmanakāya Śākyamuni Buddha is an emanation of sambhogakāya Vajradhara. Vajradhara is an emanation of the dharmakāya Samantabhadra."

And, if the three bodies are to be viewed as one, then perhaps it is as simple as that.

I am sure someone else will chime in and have more informative details surrounding this.

Shaun

Thank you for your reply! --

I know that Samantabhdra and Vajradhara are both metaphysically the same as the Primordial Buddha/Adi-Buddha/Dharmakaya, and I understand the three kayas; my question isn't "are they different", but again, who, what, when, where and why Kuntzuzanpo evolved into Dore Chang.

I've read in one of my teachers books, like you said, that Vajradhara is the Sambhogakaya acspect of Dharmakaya Samantabhadra, but I practice in the Nyingma lineage and this is a Nyingma view(Samantabhadra shown without the adornments to emphasis the naked-like, pure, openness of Dharmakaya); whereas in the Sarma schools, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya(for the most part in most cases).

I'm sure a Tibetologist will come in to save the day

Tashi Delek!

[Malcolm]

I've read in one of my teachers books, like you said, that Vajradhara is the Sambhogakaya acspect of Dharmakaya Samantabhadra, but I practice in the Nyingma lineage and this is a Nyingma view(Samantabhadra shown without the adornments to emphasis the naked-like, pure, openness of Dharmakaya); whereas in the Sarma schools, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya(for the most part in most cases).

Vajradhara, as depicted in Sakya and Geluk, demonstrates the so-called seven limbs of the three kāyas, which is the result of the fourth empowerment and represents realization of mahāmudrā. The source of this presentation is the Jñānavajrasammucaya Tantra.

The simplest way to explains this is that the limb of the dharmakāya is naturelessness, or lack of inherent existence (rang bzhin med pa); the three limbs of the sambhogakāya are complete enjoyment, union, and great bliss; and the three limbs of the nirmanakāya are being filled with compassion, not being interrupted, and never ceasing. Sometimes the limbs of not being interrupted or ceasing is placed with the dharmakāya.

There is no "transition" from Samantabhadra to Vajradhara. Samantabhadra is the name given to the dharmakāya in the root tantra of yoga tantra, the Compendium of the Principles of the Tathāgatas as well as the Guhyasamāja Tantra, the root tantra of the so-called father tantras in highest yoga tantra.

[SubduerOfNegativity]

I've read in one of my teachers books, like you said, that Vajradhara is the Sambhogakaya acspect of Dharmakaya Samantabhadra, but I practice in the Nyingma lineage and this is a Nyingma view(Samantabhadra shown without the adornments to emphasis the naked-like, pure, openness of Dharmakaya); whereas in the Sarma schools, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya(for the most part in most cases).

Vajradhara, as depicted in Sakya and Geluk, demonstrates the so-called seven limbs of the three kāyas, which is the result of the fourth empowerment and represents realization of mahāmudrā. The source of this presentation is the Jñānavajrasammucaya Tantra.

The simplest way to explains this is that the limb of the dharmakāya is naturelessness, or lack of inherent existence (rang bzhin med pa); the three limbs of the sambhogakāya are complete enjoyment, union, and great bliss; and the three limbs of the nirmanakāya are being filled with compassion, not being interrupted, and never ceasing. Sometimes the limbs of not being interrupted or ceasing is placed with the dharmakāya.

There is no "transition" from Samantabhadra to Vajradhara. Samantabhadra is the name given to the dharmakāya in the root tantra of yoga tantra, the Compendium of the Principles of the Tathāgatas as well as the Guhyasamāja Tantra, the root tantra of the so-called father tantras in highest yoga tantra.

Thanks for you reply, Malcolm!

Actually, the Guyhasamaja -- the root tantra of the so-called father tantra's of the Yoga-niruttara Tantra class -- it is Vajradhara. Vajradhara is the secret, or inner, form of Shakyamuni Buddha and the combined essence of all the buddhas of the ten directions and three periods of time gathered as one. In Anuttarayoga Tantra it is Vajradhara who emanates forth the forms of the Five Symbolic Buddhas.

And the Guhyasamaja develops off of similar traditions such as the Compendium of Principles of the Tathagatas -- Naropa and Aryadeva considered the Compendium of the Principles of the Tathagatas to be a root tantra in relation to the Guhyasamaja Tantra. And I've read the Compedium of Principles of the Tathagatas, and it is (Maha)Vairocana who takes the central role, with Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Vajrapani being used interchangeably. Samantabhadra is a Mahabodhisattva in this.

AGAIN: I DON'T HAVE DIFFUCUTLY WITH THE KAYAS OR ANY HANGUPS OF "WELL, WHICH NAME IS BEST TO USED". IT REALLY IS MOSTLY AN ACADEMIC CURIOSITY.

There is not right or wrong; but clearly, during the second dissimenation of the Dharma in Tibet, the Sarma schools didn't just appear out of a void. Many of the early leaders & practioners of the New Tantras were already of a Nyingmapa backround/their family were Buddhists since the First Dissemination, e.g, the founder of the Sakya school. So, by 'transtition' there clearly was a moving away in these new schools from previous traditions/terminolgy/praxis, one of them being Vajradhara being used in imagery, prayers, and visualizations, while the Nyingmapas in general use inj imagery, prayers, and visualizations Samantabhadra. It's all conceptualizations, and Vajradhara is Samantabhadra is the Adi Buddha for me -------- Just looking for some more accurate and detailed information about how in the evolution of Indian Buddhism, Buddha Vajradhāra gradually displaced Samantabhadra, who is the 'Primordial Buddha' in the Nyingma, or 'Ancient School.' However, the two are metaphysically equivalent.
Complete realization by a Kagyu and Nyigmapa aren't different: one doesn't attain the state of Vajradhara, which is different than the other guy who attains the state of Samantabhadra

Thanks for the Jnanavajrasammucaya Tantra, I will look into that!! Maybe I should post this in Academic Discussion subforum?

Tashi Delek my friend!

[Hazel]

Moved to Academic Discussion sub forum as that appears to be what the OP is looking for.

[Malcolm]

Vajradhara, as depicted in Sakya and Geluk, demonstrates the so-called seven limbs of the three kāyas, which is the result of the fourth empowerment and represents realization of mahāmudrā. The source of this presentation is the Jñānavajrasammucaya Tantra.

The simplest way to explains this is that the limb of the dharmakāya is naturelessness, or lack of inherent existence (rang bzhin med pa); the three limbs of the sambhogakāya are complete enjoyment, union, and great bliss; and the three limbs of the nirmanakāya are being filled with compassion, not being interrupted, and never ceasing. Sometimes the limbs of not being interrupted or ceasing is placed with the dharmakāya.

There is no "transition" from Samantabhadra to Vajradhara. Samantabhadra is the name given to the dharmakāya in the root tantra of yoga tantra, the Compendium of the Principles of the Tathāgatas as well as the Guhyasamāja Tantra, the root tantra of the so-called father tantras in highest yoga tantra.

Thanks for you reply, Malcolm!

Actually, the Guyhasamaja -- the root tantra of the so-called father tantra's of the Yoga-niruttara Tantra class -- it is Vajradhara. [/quote]

So,you’ve read the Guhyasamaja? In Tibetan or Sanskrit? I’ll provide the citation tomorrow.

And I've read the Compedium of Principles of the Tathagatas, and it is (Maha)Vairocana who takes the central role…

How do you explain this citation then?

I, Samantabhadra, have no form,
But exhibit the form of a bodhisattva
To teach bodhisattvas.

Just looking for some more accurate and detailed information about how in the evolution of Indian Buddhism, Buddha Vajradhāra gradually displaced Samantabhadra, who is the 'Primordial Buddha'

The Guhyasamaja was first translated during the imperial period.

[Malcolm]

Actually, the Guyhasamaja -- the root tantra of the so-called father tantra's of the Yoga-niruttara Tantra class -- it is Vajradhara.

So,you’ve read the Guhyasamaja? In Tibetan or Sanskrit? I’ll provide the citation tomorrow.

Samantabhadra as a name of the dharmakȳa occurs 10 times in the Guhasamāja; Vajradhara, 14 times.

Also both names appear in the Mañjuśrīnamasamgiti.

The name Samantbhadra also appears Sandhivyakarana explanatory tantra:

Immaculately pure by nature,
the mind is Samantabhadra.

And in the Vajramala Explanatory tantra:

The supreme basis of all bliss,
the nature of all things,
this is explained to be Samantabhadra.

And:

Vajra is Vajrasattva,
Vajrabhairava, Iśvara,
Heruka, Kālacakra,
Adibuddha, Mahāmuni,
Samantabhadra, Mañjuśrī...

And in the Compendium of Principles of All Tathāgatas it is also said:

Samantabhdra is the nature of all,
the lord of all migrating beings of the desire realm.

[Kai lord]

I am not sure as to the reasoning why the emphasis from the Sarma schools is on Vajradhara and the Nyingma on Samantabhadra. I am pretty sure they can be viewed as one and the same.

Perhaps the context doesn't fit here, but in another thread Malcom points out "nirmanakāya Śākyamuni Buddha is an emanation of sambhogakāya Vajradhara. Vajradhara is an emanation of the dharmakāya Samantabhadra."

And, if the three bodies are to be viewed as one, then perhaps it is as simple as that.

I am sure someone else will chime in and have more informative details surrounding this.

Shaun

Thank you for your reply! --

I know that Samantabhdra and Vajradhara are both metaphysically the same as the Primordial Buddha/Adi-Buddha/Dharmakaya, and I understand the three kayas; my question isn't "are they different", but again, who, what, when, where and why Kuntzuzanpo evolved into Dore Chang.

I've read in one of my teachers books, like you said, that Vajradhara is the Sambhogakaya acspect of Dharmakaya Samantabhadra, but I practice in the Nyingma lineage and this is a Nyingma view(Samantabhadra shown without the adornments to emphasis the naked-like, pure, openness of Dharmakaya); whereas in the Sarma schools, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya(for the most part in most cases).

I'm sure a Tibetologist will come in to save the day

Tashi Delek!

Yeah I know what you mean. I have come across and read the following equating of trikayas with adibuddha as well:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families
dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha
dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

[SubduerOfNegativity]

I am not sure as to the reasoning why the emphasis from the Sarma schools is on Vajradhara and the Nyingma on Samantabhadra. I am pretty sure they can be viewed as one and the same.

Perhaps the context doesn't fit here, but in another thread Malcom points out "nirmanakāya Śākyamuni Buddha is an emanation of sambhogakāya Vajradhara. Vajradhara is an emanation of the dharmakāya Samantabhadra."

And, if the three bodies are to be viewed as one, then perhaps it is as simple as that.

I am sure someone else will chime in and have more informative details surrounding this.

Shaun

Thank you for your reply! --

I know that Samantabhdra and Vajradhara are both metaphysically the same as the Primordial Buddha/Adi-Buddha/Dharmakaya, and I understand the three kayas; my question isn't "are they different", but again, who, what, when, where and why Kuntzuzanpo evolved into Dore Chang.

I've read in one of my teachers books, like you said, that Vajradhara is the Sambhogakaya acspect of Dharmakaya Samantabhadra, but I practice in the Nyingma lineage and this is a Nyingma view(Samantabhadra shown without the adornments to emphasis the naked-like, pure, openness of Dharmakaya); whereas in the Sarma schools, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya(for the most part in most cases).

I'm sure a Tibetologist will come in to save the day

Tashi Delek!

Yeah I know what you mean. I have come across and read the following equating of trikayas with adibuddha as well:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families
dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha
dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

^I like that, actually! Moreover, the "Dharmakaya Amitabha, Samboghakaya Chenrezig, and nirmanakaya Guru Rinpoche" is also used by my teacher.

In fact, one of our prayers -- which happens to be one of my favorites -- is by The GREAT Jamyang Khyentse Wanpo, "The Siwft Fulfillment of Wishes: A Prayer to Invoke the Fulfillment of the Most Essential and Highest Aspirations of the Great Master Padmasambhava:

(1) You are Amitabha in the dharmakaya realm of Dewachen, Chenrezik on the Glorious Mountain of Potala, and Lotus-born Tötreng Tsal on the Glorious Copper-colored Mountain of Ngayab. I supplicate you as the embodiment of the inseparable three kayas.
...

(14) When we are one-pointedly practicing the most profound yoga, Arise in the form of Orgyen Vajradhara. Padmakara, help us to accomplish the state of unity on the secret path of the creation stage, completion stage, and Dozgchen. *11

(15) If we do not attain realization in this life, Arise in the form of Orgyen Amitabha. Padmakara, ease our suffering at the time of death, and lead us to the land of Dewachen. *12

Notes appended at the end of the prayer : 11-Padmasambhava as the dharmakaya buddha.
12- Padmasambhava in the form of the dharmakaya buddha who resides in the pure land of Dewachen, the Land of Great Bliss.


But I digress...Thank you for your reply! Anyways, All praise to the Dharmakaya Kuntuzangpo Dorje Chang! May we all swiftly attain the state of Ultimate, Unsurpassed, Supreme Buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings, who were once our very own parents! Tashi Delek! I'll have to let go of my discursive minds curiosity on something which doesn't effect my view, conduct, and practice. May auspicious rainclouds of good circumstances shower down upon you, and may the blazing fire and thundering lighting of pristine cognition completely vanquish all obstacles in your path toward Awakening to the Ultimate Blissfulness of Emptiness/Awarness!