CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

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Malcolm
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:18 pm Text critical scholarship moves slowly. Frankly, we don't have time. Someone can always come along later and improve our translations.
Translation simply isn't the priority I think. In the west, it doesn't usually count for tenure review or hiring considerations, so academics, if they do it, do it in their spare time. This seems to gradually be changing, but the situation is still not ideal.
Correct, academics, in Western Buddhist studies, resemble forensic pathologists.
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Javierfv1212
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Zhen Li wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:49 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:36 pm General question: is Tathāgataguhyaka Sūtra available in english translation somewhere?
I completed a translation from Chinese and am still editing it, but I should finish it very soon.

84000 is translating from Tibetan, but its page says "Current version v 0.0.1 (2019)", so I am unsure where it is currently.

I heard of around 3 or 4 people who, for the past decade, have been translating or doing critical editions of it. So, there's definitely a lot of interest, but maybe a lack of concentration or motivation.
Oh, excellent, please share when you're done!
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

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Natan
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:44 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:30 pm If my teacher is enlightened, all I care about is whatever teachings and practices he had to get that way. That’s my gold standard.
And how would you know he or she was "enlightened?" Because that is a big IF.
What they did 1,000 years ago in India is of some intellectual interest, but it’s not all that relevant to me or my practice.
I disagree, it has a huge impact on how your practice today is shaped. The debates and controversies at Nalanda and Vikramashila had a huge impact on what was transmitted to Tibet, by whom, and when. Those impacts continue to resound today even here on Dharmawheel. But this little diversion is :offtopic:

What I am referring to is that fact that subitist* tendencies are quite pronounced in Chinese Buddhism, because of the embrace of TG; whereas they are quite suppressed and reigned in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, where the TG has, with difficulty, been absorbed. The reason for this clearly is the absence of Indian influence on the one hand, and its presence on the other. Even the schools that embrace wholeheartedly the TG doctrine in Tibet are still gradualist in orientation. And most Tibetan Buddhist scholars (but not all), historically, have not paid much attention to the TG doctrine, other than polemically, and as at best a provisional teaching. And this again has everything to do with what some Indian dudes thought.

*Subitism: The application of the term "subitism" to Buddhism is derived from the French illumination subite (sudden awakening), contrasting with 'illumination graduelle' (gradual awakening). It gained currency in this use in English from the work of sinologist Paul Demiéville. His 1947 work 'Mirror of the Mind' was widely read in the U.S. It inaugurated a series by him on subitism and gradualism.[web 1][5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism
What LJS says in Gongchig is that TG relates with Buddha activities.
Malcolm
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:45 pm What LJS says in Gongchig is that TG relates with Buddha activities.
That's unsurprising, since that is the basic point of the Uttaratantra.
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nyonchung
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:00 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:56 pm

I disagree, it has a huge impact on how your practice today is shaped. The debates and controversies at Nalanda and Vikramashila had a huge impact on what was transmitted to Tibet, by whom, and when. Those impacts continue to resound today even here on Dharmawheel.
I’m a Shentongpa. That didn’t exist in India.
Yes, actually it did, in the work of Ratnakāraśanti, a paṇḍita of Vikramaśila. Apart from tathāgatagarbha, which he ignored, his arguments about the ultimate existence of gnosis are taken directly from his works by such gzhan stong scholars as Shakya Chogden, Taranatha, etc. There is also his attempt to reconcile Nāgārjuna with the Maitreyan corpus, which also inspired these gzhan stong scholars. One of his works was translated by his student, the Nepali paṇdita, Śantibhadra, complete with a colophon complaining bitterly of the annihilationism of Candrakīrti. Someone recently did a paper on this text which you can find on Academia edu.

Incidentally, you contradict your own tradition, which asserts that gzhan stong entered Tibetan through the Kashmiri Paṇḍita Sajjana, so again, an Indian paṇḍita...
Impact, I do agree, and the "didn't exist in India" is precisely one of the polemic tools of Rendawa against gzhan stong pa-s ...`
bTsan kha bo che received the "gzhan stong dbu ma chen po" lineage from Sajjana, he from Akarashanti, he from Anandakirti, he from Maitripa - Jo nang chos ' byung - p. 11
being specified that the root text is the rGyud bla ma
- Künga Drölchog (1507-1567) gives a slightly different transmission, mentioning the translator between Sajjana and Tsen Khawoché (who was not a sanskritist), he is Zu Lotsawa Gawa'i Dorjé ( gzus lo tsA ba dga' ba'i rdo rje / gzi dga' ba'i rdo rje / zhu dga' ba'i rdo rje / lo tsA ba bzung dga' ba'i rdo rje)
- Kun dga' grol mchog thob yig - f. 146b (p. 254) - rgyud bla'i btsan lugs man ngag ye shes kyi zhabs pa'i yig chung
and again some variants after Tsen, Künga Drölchog's version of the transmission is probably better than the 1982's Jo nang chos 'byung

The instruction by Tsen Khawoché Drimé Sherab (born 1020/21?) as transmitted to Künga Drölchog is available on the Jonang Foundation
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Malcolm
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:16 pm bTsan kha bo che received the "gzhan stong dbu ma chen po" lineage from Sajjana, he from Akarashanti, he from Anandakirti, he from Maitripa - Tsen Khawoché (who was not a sanskritist),
Which leaves open the question, how much did Tsen Khawoché actually understand?
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nyonchung
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Re: CV Jones - The Buddhist Self: On Tathāgatagarbha and Ātman

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:32 pm
nyonchung wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:16 pm bTsan kha bo che received the "gzhan stong dbu ma chen po" lineage from Sajjana, he from Akarashanti, he from Anandakirti, he from Maitripa - Tsen Khawoché (who was not a sanskritist),
Which leaves open the question, how much did Tsen Khawoché actually understand?
Obviously, what the lotsawa translated, but what Drölchog mainly keeps from him is a short zab khrid
He had maybe some knowledge of sanskrit, but preciouslittle is known about him (from Deb ther sngon po - birthdate is tentative) , he was first a disciple of Drapa Ngönshé (if born 1012 "like Marpa", older than Tsen) and has also a connection with Ra Lotsawa (dates problematic) and went to Tabo in 1076, already in his fifties
He is mostly appearing in various lung transmissions of the byams chos sde lnga, or of part of them
Tsangpa Rinpoché Dorjé Mikyö / Kha'upa Namkha Dorjé (1077-1161) received the mdo sde rgyan- it must be noted that Kha'upa's biography (in Deb ther sngon po) mentions Tsen as a lotsawa along four other lotsawas (including Ngog who has a different tranmission of the byams chos)
Another line branches into the Gelugpas, but here, Parahita (disciple of Sajjana) is apparently Tsen's master, then goes via Narthang to Dölpopa, Sabzang Mati etc... Ngor V, then by a circuitous way to Khöntön, Zurchen and the Great Fifth

Dzeng Dharmabodhi (dates problematic) is also among Tsen's disciples

I had not yet checked all relevant colophons to see if and how he appears
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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