Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

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mabw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

My 2 cents:
-the Brahmanic tradition had lots to offer the state. Treatises were composed on statecraft with rituals for the royalties etc. Buddhism had little to offer in terms of statecraft, not to the sophistication of the other tradition. This is also seen in South East Asia when Hindu Buddhist kingdoms dotted the region. The kings had brahmins in court. Burma had brahmins to conduct abhiseka on the king. check Wiki. Mahayana had something to offer the state. Consequently it had patronage in Japan, and for a time, China. To my understanding, Korean Buddhism also had to adopt a closer relationship to the state to survive.
- I've mentioned this before, but did not get much traction. Buddhism is focused on its monastics. From the text, I do not get the impression the laity were well versed. If the monastic institution is shaken, then...
- down to daily life, there is little as far as I am aware of Buddhist ceremonies to mark life events such as birth, marriage etc. When you don't have an institution for yourself, others create them for you. The thread on Buddhist marriages confirms this. When Buddhists do not enter the daily life of the laity, strong Indian cultural practices with Brahmanic elements fill the void.


Ultimately, I have no answers for this, since indeed, the point of Buddhism is to escape from samsara, which relegates the above to a minor role. But then you will have to face the inevitablity of non-Buddhist elements creeping in. This is an important conversation to have. Which is why I am appreciative of what the Mahayana movement inspired in countries outside India-art, music and other cultural elements which help connect and inspire the laity. Many here however, scoff at the very mention of Mahayana. And of course, vice versa. And so the Buddhist world lie fragmented...

/I posted the above over on the other Wheel. Please critique/
Natan
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Natan »

Actually it is just impermanence. Buddhism reigned supreme for over 1000 years in India. The Indian flag still respects this history. Buddhadharma is very flexible and fluid. It's still very alive and influential. India went through a time when the Laws of Manu style of ideas helped motivate people in war, because it is about divine ordinance. Buddhadharma flourishes in peacetime.
Malcolm
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:22 pm Actually it is just impermanence. Buddhism reigned supreme for over 1000 years in India. The Indian flag still respects this history.
Until the English revived his memory through Pali sources, the Indians completely forgot about Ashoka, who in any case was a sectarian butcher until his brother's head (who was slain by accident) was brought in for the bounty Ashoka had offered on the heads of Jain monks. You can read all about it in the Ashoka-avadana. Ashoka had 18k Jains slain for a cartoon depicting the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira. Not very cool.
mabw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:21 pm
Until the English revived his memory through Pali sources, the Indians completely forgot about Ashoka, who in any case was a sectarian butcher until his brother's head (who was slain by accident) was brought in for the bounty Ashoka had offered on the heads of Jain monks. You can read all about it in the Ashoka-avadana. Ashoka had 18k Jains slain for a cartoon depicting the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira. Not very cool.
How is he described in Mahayana sources? What did Tibetan historians write of him?
Natan
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:21 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:22 pm Actually it is just impermanence. Buddhism reigned supreme for over 1000 years in India. The Indian flag still respects this history.
Until the English revived his memory through Pali sources, the Indians completely forgot about Ashoka, who in any case was a sectarian butcher until his brother's head (who was slain by accident) was brought in for the bounty Ashoka had offered on the heads of Jain monks. You can read all about it in the Ashoka-avadana. Ashoka had 18k Jains slain for a cartoon depicting the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira. Not very cool.
This is how Buddhism can decline. I was taught one is not a Buddhist if you don't practice. No where does Buddha say to kill. impermanence. It still had a good run. I am partial to the maritime Sri Vijaya in Indonesia.
tingdzin
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by tingdzin »

A couple of good books:

How the Brahmins Won by Bronkhorst

Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India by Verardi.
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Aemilius
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:21 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:22 pm Actually it is just impermanence. Buddhism reigned supreme for over 1000 years in India. The Indian flag still respects this history.
Until the English revived his memory through Pali sources, the Indians completely forgot about Ashoka, who in any case was a sectarian butcher until his brother's head (who was slain by accident) was brought in for the bounty Ashoka had offered on the heads of Jain monks. You can read all about it in the Ashoka-avadana. Ashoka had 18k Jains slain for a cartoon depicting the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira. Not very cool.
I have wondered what was this cartoon with Mahavira and Buddha like? -At the time of Ashoka there has not been any human-like representations of Buddha, according to the normative academic view.

"Although India had a long sculptural tradition and a mastery of rich iconography, the Buddha was never represented in human form, but only through Buddhist symbolism. This period may have been aniconic.
"Artists were reluctant to depict the Buddha anthropomorphically, and developed sophisticated aniconic symbols to avoid doing so (even in narrative scenes where other human figures would appear). This tendency remained as late as the 2nd century CE in the southern parts of India, in the art of the Amaravati School (see: Mara's assault on the Buddha). It has been argued that earlier anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha may have been made of wood and may have perished since then. However, no related archaeological evidence has been found.
"The earliest works of Buddhist art in India date back to the 1st century BCE. The Mahabodhi Temple at Bodh Gaya became a model for similar structures in Burma and Indonesia. The frescoes at Sigiriya are said to be even older than the Ajanta Caves paintings."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:21 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:22 pm Actually it is just impermanence. Buddhism reigned supreme for over 1000 years in India. The Indian flag still respects this history.
Until the English revived his memory through Pali sources, the Indians completely forgot about Ashoka, who in any case was a sectarian butcher until his brother's head (who was slain by accident) was brought in for the bounty Ashoka had offered on the heads of Jain monks. You can read all about it in the Ashoka-avadana. Ashoka had 18k Jains slain for a cartoon depicting the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira. Not very cool.
I have wondered what was this cartoon with Mahavira and Buddha like? -At the time of Ashoka there has not been any human-like representations of Buddha, according to the normative academic view.

"Although India had a long sculptural tradition and a mastery of rich iconography, the Buddha was never represented in human form, but only through Buddhist symbolism. This period may have been aniconic.

"Artists were reluctant to depict the Buddha anthropomorphically, and developed sophisticated aniconic symbols to avoid doing so (even in narrative scenes where other human figures would appear). This tendency remained as late as the 2nd century CE in the southern parts of India, in the art of the Amaravati School (see: Mara's assault on the Buddha). It has been argued that earlier anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha may have been made of wood and may have perished since then. However, no related archaeological evidence has been found.

"The earliest works of Buddhist art in India date back to the 1st century BCE. The Mahabodhi Temple at Bodh Gaya became a model for similar structures in Burma and Indonesia. The frescoes at Sigiriya are said to be even older than the Ajanta Caves paintings."
The earliest stoneworks. In any case, these was a Jain cartoon, not a Buddhist one. So I don't see the problem. Humans having been drawing pictures for millenia.
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Aemilius
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

There is no problem, but it must have been some form of pictorial representation, or writing with symbols. Here below Buddha is represented by a fiery pillar. I wonder what kind of symbol jains would accept for a Buddha, or what would be a universal symbol (in India) for Buddha at the time.

Image
Veneration of the Buddha as a Fiery Pillar, AD late 100s-200s
Southern India, Andhra Pradesh, Amaravati, Satavahana Period
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Javierfv1212
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

I recommend the work of Johannes Bronkhorst on this, mainly Buddhism in the Shadow of Brahmanism and How the Brahmins Won
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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Aemilius
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

"The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent was the first great iconoclastic invasion into the Indian subcontinent. As early as the 8th century, Arab conquerors invaded present-day Pakistan. In a second wave, from the 11th through the 13th centuries, Turkic, Turkic-Mongolian and Mongolian Muslims overtook the northern Indian plains. The Persian traveller Al Biruni's memoirs suggest Buddhism had vanished from Ghazni (Afghanistan) and medieval Punjab region (northern Pakistan) by early 11th century. By the end of the twelfth century, Buddhism had further disappeared, with the destruction of monasteries and stupas in medieval north-west and western Indian subcontinent (now Pakistan and north India). The chronicler of Shahubuddin Ghori's forces records enthusiastically about attacks on the monks and students and victory against the non-Muslim infidels. The major centers of Buddhism were in north India and the direct path of the Muslim armies. As centers of wealth and non-Muslim religions they were targets. Buddhist sources agree with this assessment. Taranatha in his History of Buddhism in India of 1608, gives an account of the last few centuries of Buddhism, mainly in Eastern India. Mahayana Buddhism reached its zenith during the Pala dynasty period, a dynasty that ended with the Islamic invasion of the Gangetic plains.

"According to William Johnston, hundreds of Buddhist monasteries and shrines were destroyed, Buddhist texts were burnt by the Muslim armies, monks and nuns killed during the 12th and 13th centuries in the Gangetic plains region. The Islamic invasions plundered wealth and destroyed Buddhist images.

"The Buddhist university of Nalanda was mistaken for a fort because of the walled campus. The Buddhist monks who had been slaughtered were mistaken for Brahmins according to Minhaj-i-Siraj. The walled town, the Odantapuri monastery, was also conquered by his forces. Sumpa basing his account on that of Śākyaśrībhadra who was at Magadha in 1200, states that the Buddhist university complexes of Odantapuri and Vikramshila were also destroyed and the monks massacred. Muslim forces attacked the north-western regions of the Indian subcontinent many times. Many places were destroyed and renamed. For example, Odantapuri's monasteries were destroyed in 1197 by Mohammed-bin-Bakhtiyar and the town was renamed. Likewise, Vikramashila was destroyed by the forces of Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khilji around 1200. Many Buddhist monks fled to Nepal, Tibet, and South India to avoid the consequences of war. Tibetan pilgrim Chöjepal (1179–1264), who arrived in India in 1234, had to flee advancing Muslim troops multiple times, as they were sacking Buddhist sites.

"The north-west parts of the Indian subcontinent fell to Islamic control, and the consequent take over of land holdings of Buddhist monasteries removed one source of necessary support for the Buddhists, while the economic upheaval and new taxes on laity sapped the laity support of Buddhist monks. Not all monasteries were destroyed by the invasions (Somapuri, Lalitagiri, Udayagiri), but since these large Buddhist monastic complexes had become dependent on the patronage of local authorities, when this patronage dissipated, they were abandoned by the sangha."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
tingdzin
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by tingdzin »

The above is the received story, but it leaves much to be desired. If you just want pat answers, that will do as well as any. If you are really interested, you'll have to read some.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:57 pm I recommend the work of Johannes Bronkhorst on this, mainly Buddhism in the Shadow of Brahmanism and How the Brahmins Won
:good: I enjoyed his writings as well.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Javierfv1212
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

There's also this publication available online: The Decline of Buddhism in India A Fresh Perspective - K.T.S. Sarao

The Decline of Buddhism in India A Fres ... 0India.pdf
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
thomaslaw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

The Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu. India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. Buddhism became similar to or part of Hinduism at that time, I think.
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Aemilius
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

"According to William Johnston, hundreds of Buddhist monasteries and shrines were destroyed, Buddhist texts were burnt by the Muslim armies, monks and nuns killed during the 12th and 13th centuries in the Gangetic plains region. The Islamic invasions plundered wealth and destroyed Buddhist images."

Later survival and traces of Buddhism

"Abul Fazl, the courtier of Mughal emperor Akbar, states, 'For a long time past scarce any trace of them (the Buddhists) has existed in Hindustan.' When he visited Kashmir in 1597 he met with a few old men professing Buddhism, however, he 'saw none among the learned'. This can also be seen from the fact that Buddhist priests were not present amidst learned divines that came to the Ibadat Khana of Akbar at Fatehpur Sikri.

"After the Islamization of Kashmir by sultans like Sikandar Butshikan, much of Hinduism was gone and a little of Buddhism remained. Fazl writes, 'The third time that the writer accompanied His Majesty to the delightful valley of Kashmir, he met a few old men of this persuasion (Buddhism), but saw none among the learned.'

"Abd al-Qadir Bada'uni mentions, 'Moreover samanis and Brahmans managed to get frequent private audiences with His Majesty.' The term samani (Sanskrit: Sramana and Prakrit: Samana) refers to a monk (in Jainism and Buddhism).

"Taranatha's history mentions Buddhist Sangha surviving in some regions of India during his time (1575–1634), which includes Konkana, Kalinga, Mewad, Chittor, Abu, Saurastra, Vindhya mountains, Ratnagiri, Karnataka etc. A Jain author Gunakirti (1450–1470) wrote a Marathi text, Dhamramrita, where he gives the names of 16 Buddhist orders. Dr. Johrapurkar noted that among them, the names Sataghare, Dongare, Navaghare, Kavishvar, Vasanik and Ichchhabhojanik still survive in Maharashtra as family names."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
thomaslaw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:45 am The Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu. India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. Buddhism became similar to or part of Hinduism at that time, I think.
I really consider that Buddhism internally at that time became similar to Hinduism was one of the main factors for Buddhism's decline in India, particularly India Tantric Buddhism, which was the mainstream developed in Indian Buddhism.

I would like to hear from your viewpoints regarding this, if I am wrong.
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Aemilius
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:52 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:45 am The Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu. India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. Buddhism became similar to or part of Hinduism at that time, I think.
I really consider that Buddhism internally at that time became similar to Hinduism was one of the main factors for Buddhism's decline in India, particularly India Tantric Buddhism, which was the mainstream developed in Indian Buddhism.

I would like to hear from your viewpoints regarding this, if I am wrong.
The Muslims had a clear impression that Buddhists were not theists, that they were atheistic and therefore heretics. And that they were different from the followers of Vedas. Therefore your idea is quite certainly wrong.
Tantric deity practices were an inner or secret aspect of the Dharma. In effect Buddhists were still nontheists and atheists.
Even at the time of Buddha the deities existed, and they were perceived by some of the Buddha's followers. In the practice of Six remembrances (anu-smriti or anu-sati) one of the six objects of remembering is devas or deities. This practice exists even in the Sravakayana sutras/suttas and commentaries. There is a further version of it, Ten remembrances, which is also found in the sutras/suttas.
"Dharma is subtle, very subtle, difficult to see and understand", Bhagavan Shakyamuni.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
thomaslaw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:33 pm
Tantric deity practices were an inner or secret aspect of the Dharma. In effect Buddhists were still nontheists and atheists.
You consider Tantric deity practices in Buddhism were/are nontheists and atheists. Could you give some explanations or concrete details for that? Thanks.
mabw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:50 pm There's also this publication available online: The Decline of Buddhism in India A Fresh Perspective - K.T.S. Sarao

The Decline of Buddhism in India A Fres ... 0India.pdf
The link is not working.

Btw, connection to this forum has been slow for the past week. Anyone experiencing this problem? The other wheel seems ok though.
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