Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:18 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:33 pm
Tantric deity practices were an inner or secret aspect of the Dharma. In effect Buddhists were still nontheists and atheists.
You consider Tantric deity practices in Buddhism were/are nontheists and atheists. Could you give some explanations or concrete details for that? Thanks.
The dictionary definition of theism is that you believe in the existence of one or several supernatural beings. In this sense Buddha himself is a theist, because the beings in the six realms exist, and enlightened beings exist.

Buddhism is considered atheist or nastika in Indian traditional thought. You can look into the concepts astika and nastika.
An important point is that Buddhism denies that world would be created by Ishvara or some other divinity; self and world are created by Pratitya samutpada, Dependent origination, according to the Dharma.
Buddha teaches that deities cannot do so much for one self as one's own well directed mind can do for one self (Dhammapada).

Some Suttas where Buddha discusses with Devas http://buddhadust.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... yc.pts.htm

In Tantra the practitoner/sadhaka is on the same level as the deity or deities, in this sense they are atheist. Certain Indian tantrist thinks that there is tantrism also in Europe, because he has found that some Masons have said that they themselves are the God. Which is the message of Tantra, he says. (Can't remember his name, but he is in Youtube).
Masons are a remnant of the mystery religions that existed in Greece, Rome and Egypt previously. Mystery religions continued in Guilds in Europe for a long time, says Voltaire in his Encyclopedia. "Mystery" translates initiation, roughly.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
thomaslaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:53 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:18 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:33 pm
Tantric deity practices were an inner or secret aspect of the Dharma. In effect Buddhists were still nontheists and atheists.
You consider Tantric deity practices in Buddhism were/are nontheists and atheists. Could you give some explanations or concrete details for that? Thanks.
The dictionary definition of theism is that you believe in the existence of one or several supernatural beings. In this sense Buddha himself is a theist, because the beings in the six realms exist, and enlightened beings exist.

Buddhism is considered atheist or nastika in Indian traditional thought. You can look at the concepts astika and nastika.
An important point is that Buddhism denies that world is created by Ishvara or some other divinity; self and world are created by Pratitya samutpada, Dependent origination, according to the Dharma.
Buddha teaches that deities cannot do so much for one self as one's own well directed mind can do for one self (Dhammapada).

Some Suttas where Buddha discusses with Devas http://buddhadust.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... yc.pts.htm
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I agree with you; I do not have any issues regarding Buddhism is non-theistic but also not atheistic, according to the mentioned basic Buddhist teachings/dharmas (such as the six realms, Dependent origination) based on the suttas/sutras.

But my question is: Why do you consider Tantric deity practices were/are nontheists and atheists?
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

"Atheistic" is to large extent a conventional designation. If you believe that there are the four kinds of attainment of the Sravakayana path, the ten Bodhisattva bhumis, and three Kayas of Buddhahood, for the people outside of Buddhism that very likely amounts to believing in supernatural or transcendental beings.

The Buddhist Dharma includes the possibility of beings in other realms also becoming enlightened. Thus there can be enlightened devas or deities. Human beings can become devas in Buddhism. The enlightened human beings can become enlightened devas.
Also, enlightened Bodhisattvas can emanate illusory bodies of deities in order to help beings of the six realms. Thus the enlightened deities of Tantra is consistent with basic Buddhism. You still have to follow the path through your own efforts.

In The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature the author Har Dayal describes 18 rddhis of Bodhisattvas. These supranormal powers are found in several traditional sources of the Mahayana, given by Har Dayal are: Mahavastu, Dharmasangraha, Mahavyutpatti, Dasabhumika sutra, Bodhisattvabhumi and Mahayanasutra-alankara.
Last edited by Aemilius on Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Malcolm »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:22 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:53 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:18 pm

You consider Tantric deity practices in Buddhism were/are nontheists and atheists. Could you give some explanations or concrete details for that? Thanks.
The dictionary definition of theism is that you believe in the existence of one or several supernatural beings. In this sense Buddha himself is a theist, because the beings in the six realms exist, and enlightened beings exist.

Buddhism is considered atheist or nastika in Indian traditional thought. You can look at the concepts astika and nastika.
An important point is that Buddhism denies that world is created by Ishvara or some other divinity; self and world are created by Pratitya samutpada, Dependent origination, according to the Dharma.
Buddha teaches that deities cannot do so much for one self as one's own well directed mind can do for one self (Dhammapada).

Some Suttas where Buddha discusses with Devas http://buddhadust.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... yc.pts.htm
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I agree with you; I do not have any issues regarding Buddhism is non-theistic but also not atheistic, according to the mentioned basic Buddhist teachings/dharmas (such as the six realms, Dependent origination) based on the suttas/sutras.

But my question is: Why do you consider Tantric deity practices were/are nontheists and atheists?
Because they are generally applied Abhidharma.
User avatar
Javierfv1212
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:

The following factors, mostly inherent weaknesses of
Indian Buddhism, appear to have collectively caused its
decline:
1. Urban character, lack of mass-base, and anti-Buddhist brahmana-peasant alliance.
2. Inalienable affiliation with and dependence upon mercantile communities for material support.
3. Intellectual snobbery, social aloofness, and lack of interest in cultivating loyal supporters.
4. Death-wish mentality.
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
User avatar
Javierfv1212
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:
1. Urban character, lack of mass-base, and anti-Buddhist brahmana-peasant alliance.
2. Inalienable affiliation with and dependence upon mercantile communities for material support.
3. Intellectual snobbery, social aloofness, and lack of interest in cultivating loyal supporters.
4. Death-wish mentality.
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
mabw
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:20 pm

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:25 pm http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:
1. Urban character, lack of mass-base, and anti-Buddhist brahmana-peasant alliance.
2. Inalienable affiliation with and dependence upon mercantile communities for material support.
3. Intellectual snobbery, social aloofness, and lack of interest in cultivating loyal supporters.
4. Death-wish mentality.
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
It does. Thank you!
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:00 pm http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:

The following factors, mostly inherent weaknesses of
Indian Buddhism, appear to have collectively caused its
decline:
1. Urban character, lack of mass-base, and anti-Buddhist brahmana-peasant alliance.
2. Inalienable affiliation with and dependence upon mercantile communities for material support.
3. Intellectual snobbery, social aloofness, and lack of interest in cultivating loyal supporters.
4. Death-wish mentality.
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
Sarao could also write an account how Dharma suddenly disappeared in Tibet in 1960's without mentioning the destruction of some 6000 monasteries with dynamite.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
thomaslaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:25 am Sarao could also write an account how Dharma suddenly disappeared in Tibet in 1960's without mentioning the destruction of some 6000 monasteries with dynamite.
Do you refer to the Tantric Dharma in Tibet?
thomaslaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:25 pm http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:
1. ... 2. ... 3. ... 4. ...
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
This finding supports that the Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu, and India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. That is, Buddhism became similar to or being part of Hinduism at that time as one of the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India.
thomaslaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:30 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:25 pm http://oldweb.du.ac.in/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

This should work

According to Sarao, the following are the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India:
1. ... 2. ... 3. ... 4. ...
5. Overwhelming presence of brahmanical elements in the sangha and unwittingly playing second fiddle to Brahmanical-Hinduism
This finding supports that the Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu, and India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. That is, Buddhism became similar to or being part of Hinduism at that time as one of the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India.
So, one may need to learn from this important historical finding for the development of all Buddhist traditions in today by not forgetting the most essential teachings of Buddhism (e.g. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sūtrāṅga portion of the Pāli Saṃyutta-Nikāya and the Chinese Saṃyuktāgama by Choong Mun-keat (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000)).
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Aemilius »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:25 am Sarao could also write an account how Dharma suddenly disappeared in Tibet in 1960's without mentioning the destruction of some 6000 monasteries with dynamite.
Do you refer to the Tantric Dharma in Tibet?
Tibetans traditionally follow the three Yanas (Sravakayana, Mahayana and Tantrayana), as outer and inner levels of practice. This system had developed in India.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Leo Rivers
Posts: 498
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:52 am
Contact:

Why Buddhism's Decline in India? NEW LINK

Post by Leo Rivers »

http://www.du.ac.in/du/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

SEE PAGE 263 of pdf FOR 5 CAUSES OF BUDDHISM'S decline.

It's a sobering wake up call to us too! :o
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India? NEW LINK

Post by Aemilius »

Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:11 pm http://www.du.ac.in/du/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

SEE PAGE 263 of pdf FOR 5 CAUSES OF BUDDHISM'S decline.

It's a sobering wake up call to us too! :o
Why not blame the tibetans too for the destruction of 6000 monasteries in Tibetan Autonomous Region of China in 1959.. 60 ? I.e. that the destruction of tibetan dharma was caused by the leading clerics' alienation from the communist masses, by their opposition to proletarian values and by disregarding the true liberation offered by the the marxist ideology.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
thomaslaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India? NEW LINK

Post by thomaslaw »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:01 am
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:11 pm http://www.du.ac.in/du/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

SEE PAGE 263 of pdf FOR 5 CAUSES OF BUDDHISM'S decline.

It's a sobering wake up call to us too! :o
Why not blame the tibetans too for the destruction of 6000 monasteries in Tibetan Autonomous Region of China in 1959.. 60 ? I.e. that the destruction of tibetan dharma was caused by the leading clerics' alienation from the communist masses, by their opposition to proletarian values and by disregarding the true liberation offered by the the marxist ideology.
Do you think one should 'blame the Tibetans too' for the decline of Buddhism in Tibet?

What is Tibetan dharma?
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India? NEW LINK

Post by Aemilius »

thomaslaw wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:28 am
Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:01 am
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:11 pm http://www.du.ac.in/du/uploads/departme ... 0India.pdf

SEE PAGE 263 of pdf FOR 5 CAUSES OF BUDDHISM'S decline.

It's a sobering wake up call to us too! :o
Why not blame the Tibetans too for the destruction of 6000 monasteries in Tibetan Autonomous Region of China in 1959.. 60 ? I.e. that the destruction of Tibetan dharma was caused by the leading clerics' alienation from the communist masses, by their opposition to proletarian values and by disregarding the true liberation offered by the the Marxist ideology.
Do you think one should 'blame the Tibetans too' for the decline of Buddhism in Tibet?
No I don't think really, it depends on what kind of fatalist one is. You could say that they had been too long time isolated from the rest of the world, as some academic people have said. On the other hand, we don't usually blame the tribes in amazonian rain-forest for not getting acquainted with cellphones, for not learning advanced mathematics and the like... Maybe it was just "the march of time" , as someone has said, yet again. I don't say that I know the answer. Evolution is not "nice", very often. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, ice ages, meteors etc. occur and change everything.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Malcolm »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:30 pm
This finding supports that the Buddha was regarded as part of the ninth incarnation ‘avatar’ (avatāra) of Vishnu, and India Tantric Buddhism (c. 500-1200 CE) was also similar to Hinduism. That is, Buddhism became similar to or being part of Hinduism at that time as one of the main causes for the decline of Buddhism in India.
Completely false.
User avatar
Javierfv1212
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Well, the similarities between the Buddhist tantras and the Shaiva tantras are well known.

Of course, it is still quite different philosophically, but there are many similarities as well. They even used the same sacred sites often (the pitha lists are very similar) for example.

So this similarity can't really be completely denied.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Malcolm »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:55 pm Well, the similarities between the Buddhist tantras and the Shaiva tantras are well known.
Quite overstated, in fact.
Of course, it is still quite different philosophically, but there are many similarities as well. They even used the same sacred sites often (the pitha lists are very similar) for example.
All Indians also bath in communal pools, or did at one time.
So this similarity can't really be completely denied.
Using the presence of pan-Indian cultural themes and tropes in Buddhism to explain away the demise of Buddhism in India is lazy scholarship. The reality is that Buddhism was first weakened by the invasion of the White Huns and the collapse of the Guptas, then systematically hounded out of India by hostile Hindu kings (evident because of the frequent references to magical battles between Hindus and Buddhist Mahāsiddhas, especially from the ninth century onward), and the fatal blow was delivered by the Muslims at the end of the 12th century, though there were Buddhist holdouts in Bengal until the 16th century.
mabw
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:20 pm

Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

There've been a lot of external factors discussed. I'll be more inclined to read about internal factors within Buddhist communities themselves. That's the only thing Buddhists can control, and hopefully prevent from happening again.
Post Reply

Return to “Academic Discussion”