Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

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Zhen Li
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Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

I'm preparing a translation of the Chinese versions of the Tathāgatācintyaguhya Sūtra. To provide as much of a comprehensive survey as is possible with my limited knowledge of Tibetan, does anyone have information on the Tibetan reception of the sūtra beyond its usage by Candrakirti? Thanks.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:26 am I'm preparing a translation of the Chinese versions of the Tathāgatācintyaguhya Sūtra. To provide as much of a comprehensive survey as is possible with my limited knowledge of Tibetan, does anyone have information on the Tibetan reception of the sūtra beyond its usage by Candrakirti? Thanks.
You should run a comparison of it with the tenjur at buddhanexus.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:35 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:26 am I'm preparing a translation of the Chinese versions of the Tathāgatācintyaguhya Sūtra. To provide as much of a comprehensive survey as is possible with my limited knowledge of Tibetan, does anyone have information on the Tibetan reception of the sūtra beyond its usage by Candrakirti? Thanks.
You should run a comparison of it with the tenjur at buddhanexus.
Thank you Malcolm. I didn't find anything major. I think most of my questions would be answered by seeing the elusive Sanskrit mansucript, but the Chinese is largely unproblematic outside of figuring out Sanskrit names. It is definitely a classic Tathāgatagarbha sūtra and it surprises me that it remains untranslated to this day from any of the sources. I heard about various people preparing translations for the past few decades but nothing ever comes of it. I will post a link to my translation of both the early and later versions on DW when completed.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:35 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:26 am I'm preparing a translation of the Chinese versions of the Tathāgatācintyaguhya Sūtra. To provide as much of a comprehensive survey as is possible with my limited knowledge of Tibetan, does anyone have information on the Tibetan reception of the sūtra beyond its usage by Candrakirti? Thanks.
You should run a comparison of it with the tenjur at buddhanexus.
Thank you Malcolm. I didn't find anything major. I think most of my questions would be answered by seeing the elusive Sanskrit mansucript, but the Chinese is largely unproblematic outside of figuring out Sanskrit names. It is definitely a classic Tathāgatagarbha sūtra and it surprises me that it remains untranslated to this day from any of the sources. I heard about various people preparing translations for the past few decades but nothing ever comes of it. I will post a link to my translation of both the early and later versions on DW when completed.
It’s on the list at 84000
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:35 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:26 am I'm preparing a translation of the Chinese versions of the Tathāgatācintyaguhya Sūtra. To provide as much of a comprehensive survey as is possible with my limited knowledge of Tibetan, does anyone have information on the Tibetan reception of the sūtra beyond its usage by Candrakirti? Thanks.
You should run a comparison of it with the tenjur at buddhanexus.
Thank you Malcolm. I didn't find anything major. I think most of my questions would be answered by seeing the elusive Sanskrit mansucript, but the Chinese is largely unproblematic outside of figuring out Sanskrit names. It is definitely a classic Tathāgatagarbha sūtra and it surprises me that it remains untranslated to this day from any of the sources. I heard about various people preparing translations for the past few decades but nothing ever comes of it. I will post a link to my translation of both the early and later versions on DW when completed.
It is unlikely that this text was commonly read on its own, and its citations would mostly be mined from citations.

In the Śikṣāsammucayais a long citation of ff. 161a-161b, ff. 165b-166a., f.171a, 183a-183b
In Bhavaviveka's Prajñāpradipa, there is a citation of f. 166b, f. 167a
In the Kāyatravṛtti, there is a citation of 166.b, etc.
In Prajñāpradipatika, f. 167, etc.
In Bodhicaryāvatarapanjika, f. 177
In Prasannapāda, f.202b,

Etc. This sūtra is most commonly, but not exclusively, cited by Indian Mādhyamikas. There are a large number of passages from it in the
Vyākhyāyuktitika, few in the Śravākabhumi, the Abhisamayaalmḳara commentaries also have several.

I would say that this sūtra was more important to Mādhyamikas.

The Tibetans know this sūtra under its short title, གསང་བ་བསམ་གྱིས་མི་ཁྱབ་པའི་མདོ, the Sūtra of the Inconceivable Secret. It is regularly cited by scholars in every school.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

Thank you. I will look into these references.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:32 am Thank you. I will look into these references.
Buddhanexus is a bit hard to get used to, but selecting for longer citations of 30+ characters results in more meaningful hits.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:35 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:32 am Thank you. I will look into these references.
Buddhanexus is a bit hard to get used to, but selecting for longer citations of 30+ characters results in more meaningful hits.
Malcolm, I wanted to DM you this but I think you disabled your messaging.

I am really hopeless at navigating Tibetan texts. I think I have found the śāstric references that I need for now though.

But I am looking for chapter 20 (+/-?) in Tibetan to compare my transcription of the dhāraṇī from Chinese. Can you by any chance help me find it?
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by tingdzin »

I don't know if this is germane, but Williams (in his Mahayana Buddhism survey) thinks a lot of tathagatagarbha-related sutras are apocryphal. Many of them may not have ever had complete Sanskrit texts.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

tingdzin wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:50 am I don't know if this is germane, but Williams (in his Mahayana Buddhism survey) thinks a lot of tathagatagarbha-related sutras are apocryphal. Many of them may not have ever had complete Sanskrit texts.
Thanks for this point. I was probably a bit premature in saying that it's classic Tathāgatagarbha. Now I've almost finished my translation it seems that while the ideas within the sūtra are consistent with Tathāgatagarbha, that term is not mentioned, nor is Buddha-nature. I think it is worth discussing the sūtra in relation to Tathāgatagarbha theory, however, and I will try to do some justice to the topic in my translation's introduction, but I am not sure if I will be able to do any justice to the topic as it is not my area of expertise.

Regarding apocrypha, Williams doesn't really treat the topic well in that book. He does not really have any discussion of the topic to clarify what he means, but I think he is broadly characterising it as anything composed in Central Asia (by which is usually meant northern central Asia rather than Gandhara) or China. The term and its usage have been deemed somewhat problematic and I think if he revises the book now he would probably nuance the discussion a bit more, but I get your point.

The Tathāgataguhya is unlikely to be composed in China. There's an article in Japanese by Ikuma, who looks at the names of towns mentioned in the sūtra which are part of a formula attempting to define Madhyadeśa and border countries and makes an argument based on that that the sūtra was composed in North-West India. I wasn't entirely convinced by his argument but I will try to explain this more fully when I get a chance. Anyway, there's a large amount of Sanskrit fragments from Calcutta, which are not publically available, and it was once prevalent in Nepal, so apocrypha is unlikely here.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by tingdzin »

Would like to read your work when it's finished. Are you going to publish it?
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

tingdzin wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:31 am Would like to read your work when it's finished. Are you going to publish it?
I am thinking of self-publishing it under my Dharma name.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Svalaksana »

tingdzin wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:31 am Would like to read your work when it's finished. Are you going to publish it?
Seconded here. I'd be very interested in reading it as well. And thank you for your contribution in translating Buddhist works, as well as your illuminating posts.
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Re: Information on Tibetan reception of De-bzhin gshegs-pa’i gsang-ba bsam-kyis mi-khyab-pa bstan-pa

Post by Zhen Li »

Svalaksana wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:22 am
tingdzin wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:31 am Would like to read your work when it's finished. Are you going to publish it?
Seconded here. I'd be very interested in reading it as well. And thank you for your contribution in translating Buddhist works, as well as your illuminating posts.
Thanks for your interest. It should take another month or so, but depends on work and household stuff.
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