south land

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daru
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south land

Post by daru »

Would you be able to comment on these examples of possible influence from Java in Australia? Borobudur has makara as do many Javanese buildings. Makara may be kadimarkara, from Old Java kaḍiwas meaning a type of sea-fish and Sanskrit कधि kadhi  ocean. माकर  mAkara sea-monster, crocodile.This suggests a fossil salt-water crocodile of Lake Eyre, South Australia.

http://www.anthropologysocietysa.com/ho ... obbs_C.pdf
Kardimarkara, a crocodile shape with four legs and fossil crocodiles. p 43-48.
Fossilised tree associated with kardimarkara p 37.  

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Nat ... a.djvu/826   p 826, 827.
"This legend professes to account for the origin of the fossilised marsupials and other creatures which are found in several places in the Lake Eyre district, and also for that of the mound springs which are so marked a feature of that part of Australia. These fossils are called by the tribes-people Kadimarkara, creatures which in the Mura-mura times descended from the sky-country to the earth, by means of great trees which grew on the eastern shores of Lake Eyre, and supported the sky. "   Makara are on Javanese water spouts.

Wabma Kadarbu ( Mt Hamilton South Australia), which translates as 'snake's head', is  a mound water-spring.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Wabma+K ... e&ie=UTF-8
Skt  kaTabhU   cheek or region of the temples of an elephant.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Th ... 22&f=false  
 "..the Dieri perform magical ceremonies for the multiplication of their totemic animals, no doubt with the intention of thereby increasing the food-supply of the tribe... To judge from the description of him, he seems to be one of those fossil beasts or reptiles which are found in the deltas of rivers flowing into Lake Eyre. Such fossil bones are called kadimarkara by the Dieri."  _James George Frazer - 2011. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Kirtimukha p 318.
"The arch or architrave of a makara torana was known in Sanskrit literature as mattavarana, “untamed wild elephant,”.. Sometimes the lotus vine is visualized as kalpalata, a wish-granting vine bearing precious ornaments and cloths as its fruit and comes out of the mouth of an elephant, a makara, and other symbols representing water and mud.. The fountains are tastefully yet meaningfully rendered as the rain river Ganga or Sarasvati, which brings many varieties of creatures including cattle to the earth as they descend from heaven at the beginning of the monsoon.  All symbolic and decorative elements on the ceiling, including aquatic and semi aquatic creatures such as fish, water buffaloes,and elephants, also appear around the entrances to Indic temples, including the Ajanta cave shrines, because the entrances of Indian  shrines and temples represent the atmospheric gate of heaven."


Wabma Kadarbu ( Mt Hamilton South Australia), which translates as 'snake's head', a mound water-spring.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Wabma+K ... e&ie=UTF-8
Skt  kaTabhU   cheek or region of the temples of an elephant.

Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre National Park .
https://www.parks.sa.gov.au/parks/kati- ... ional-park
OJava kuṭi (Skt hut, cottage) Buddhist monastery.
thāni "elected village councillor".
taṇḍa "head-man".
daru
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Re: south land

Post by daru »

Buddhist tradition possibly was known in east Australia in Wiradjuri country.  This is from Rev. W. Watson's Journal from Apl 1st to June 30th 1835.
https://downloads.newcastle.edu.au/libr ... -1835.html   
".. to celebrate Waganna (a dance) to [god] Baiami ..  when Baiami gave the "Gudthi" (song) which they now chant  to him,  after the first celebration of the "Waganna" . He also commanded them to use small Twigs about 9 inches in length which they were to beat against each other in the "Waganna' ..These Twigs are named "Mudthir"  from Mudthirra which signifies repeated beating or, thrashing.  .."     It was intended to heal smallpox. 

Old Java wacana is Skt vacana.
Mudra is an "instrument used for stamping or sealing".
Old Java mudra  (Skt mudrā)  " particular position of the fingers (with sacred function
and meaning ); with supernatural efficacy."   Tibetan Tantraya uses a short
dagger in ritual healing  with " vigorous touching."   " The phurba appear in different
rituals concerning divination and healing. In the middle of these rituals “the jhankri
takes hold of his ritual dagger and starts to dance furiously directing the phurba
towards all the places where an evil presence could be lodged. To heal his patient he
vigorously touches the part of the body where he is suffering with the triangular blade of
his wooden knife. This is adorned with snakes - symbols of fecundity and powerful
telluric forces - being fought by an eagle, ally of the divine forces of heaven."  (Kovacs 2012 ).

 "I can only say that if those are true etymologies, then certainly mudrā (hand gesture) is a tantric practice although gāthas (songs) are pan-Indic, and vacana, sentence, sound, is a term used in tantric traditions, which talk a lot about mantras and the power of the word. Tantric traditions were all pervasive in medieval South-East Asia so I suppose some influence on Australian traditions is possible.
Professor Gavin Flood FBA
Senior Research Fellow, Campion Hall, Oxford University
Professor of Hindu Studies and Comparative Religion, Oxford University."
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: south land

Post by Kim O'Hara »

daru wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:39 am Would you be able to comment on these examples of possible influence from Java in Australia? Borobudur has makara as do many Javanese buildings. Makara may be kadimarkara, from Old Java kaḍiwas meaning a type of sea-fish and Sanskrit कधि kadhi  ocean. माकर  mAkara sea-monster, crocodile.This suggests a fossil salt-water crocodile of Lake Eyre, South Australia.
...
It is possible that there are connections but I think they are highly unlikely, and even more unlikely to be as specific and detailed as you suggest.
It is true that were cultural and trading connections between Indonesia and northern Australia for some centuries before Europeans visited the area. But there are many language-groups and tribal groups between that area and Wiradjuri country or Lake Eyre.
It is also true that crocodiles have not changed much in millions of years and that they still live over a wide area from India through Indonesia to northern Australia. But crocs don't live as far south as Wiradjuri country or Lake Eyre, and haven't for thousands of years, so there's no reason at all for any word for them to survive in the local languages, let alone an Asian word.

:coffee:
Kim
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Ayu
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Re: south land

Post by Ayu »

Sorry, I produced some confusion by moving this topic from the subforum Academic Discussion to the Lounge - and then I moved it back again here.
Although the topic is not about Buddhist teachings, still the intention of this topic is to be discussed in relation to academic references.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
daru
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Re: south land

Post by daru »

Hi Kim

The three descriptions say there are fossil crocodiles at Lake Eyre. There is co-incidence of crocodile, sea-monster and the name.
Cenzoic Era fossil research | SA Museum
https://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/cenzoic-era
Non-marine sediments of the Lake Eyre Basin in the north of the state contain diverse vertebrate faunas of Tertiary age, including lungfish, crocodiles

"The Australian swag [back-pack] was born of Australia and no other land. The land where a man out of employment might shoulder his swag in Adelaide and take the track, and years later walk into a hut on the Gulf of Carpenteria"._ Henry Lawson 1907. They would speak English from one side of the land to the other.  Aboriginal people walked 400km to the Bunya Nut festival in Queensland.  Bundjalung legend says a boat arrived in east Australia from Ngareenbeil "overseas islands" and which means "your beloved countryman" in Old Bali language of 'Indonesia'. Coastal rivers lead to the start of western rivers and to Ngiyampaa country on the Darling river.

 "When I wrote a grammar of the Wangaaypuwan variety of Ngiyampaa, I began with a map of what my teachers called their ngurram-paa, their 'camp-world',  captioned 'the area in which surviving Ngiyampaa speakers were born and for which they know place-names' . Tibetan Ngarampa degree includes study of mandala representing the layout of the world and cosmos. Sumatra in 'Indonesia' was a teaching location for Chinese students before travelling on to Tibet.
Last edited by daru on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: south land

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Hi, daru,
I have given you my opinion, purely as an Australian with a reasonable lay knowledge of its fossil and current wildlife, indigenous culture and language, and southeast Asian cultures. (You might like to think about how many people here cover all those bases.)
I could look up more information on any of these subjects but I'm not interested because I don't believe it will lead anywhere, so I have nothing to add to what I said before.

Good luck with your research.

:namaste:
Kim
daru
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Re: south land

Post by daru »

Hi Kim,

That's OK the feedback is something to reason about. The absence of living crocodiles and the way that Europeans wrote about the legend suggests the living beast was unknown to those tribal people. "Crocodile" was attached to what the descriptions brought to Europeans' minds. In turn, the fossil skeletons likely reminded a person from Asia of makara crocodile but which were a 4-legged, long, fearsome horror to Aboriginals.

Another example from east Australia without crocodiles suggests an Asian view of a legendary river-monster, to which a crocodile name was attached. Makara are sometimes depicted as gharial, a fresh-water crocodile known in Indonesia and which can attack people today. This seems likely to be garriya. And in modern times the idea of a crocodile would be given by Aboriginals to its description.

"The only mention of a crocodile in the sky is in Parker and Lang (1905: 95), where she describes in the Milky Way a “dark shadow of a crocodile”, which seems strange, as she was located in an area (Narran Lakes) where the last known crocodile was Pallimnarchus, a crocodile from the Pleistocene, extinct over 40,000 years BP (Gillespie and David, 2001: 42). Parker names it Kurreah, and in the current Kamilaroi/Euahlayi language there is a word, garriya, “crocodile”.  p 11,12.  
The Astronomy of the Kamilaroi People and their ...
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1311/1311.0076.pdf
by RS Fuller · 2013 ·

There is also the Dharawal country near Sydney with a legend of a boat arriving from the north and bringing the dharawal palm tree.
Daru-wala in Persia-India and Indonesia has the sense of timber and palm-tree of several uses. Then 2 populations are declaring contacts with boat-building, overseas cultures.
Last edited by daru on Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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