Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

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RobertoKhorviano
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Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by RobertoKhorviano »

Hello good people

Recently somebody shared with me this academic paper named:
"When Buddhas dissociate: A psychological perspective on the origins of great perfection Buddhism (rDzogs Chen)"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... MNlxkDXzmA&

The author of the article cites many Dzogchen sources, adresses 17 Tantras and looks at history of Great Perfection teachings using a multidisciplinary approach combining historical studies, psychology and trauma research. It claims that the origin story of Great Perfection - stirring in the basis, beings falling under the sway of marigpa and various technicalities related to that - are a mythical narration of trauma, dissociation (and possible recovery).

Now probably the serious Dzogchen researchers and practitioners from Dharmawheel could take a critical look at this paper. I'm not by any means endorsing the thesis or the conclusions of the paper. What caught my attention is that Atiyoga is often recommended for people who suffer the most from the klesa of ignorance (buddha family types). I'm referring to scheme of: the Mahayoga for those who suffer from aversion, Anuyoga for those full of desire and Atiyoga for ignorant ones. Certainly dissociation is an expression of ignorance (nomen omen spacing out). So implying some specific connection between Dzogchen and dissociation is not so far-fetched in this sense. Whether the text handles the problem well is entirely a different question (including not only the conclusions but whether it's factually accurate, whether the translations it uses are sound etc). I would like to leave that up to more learned and experienced practitioners of Dzogchen from Dharmawheel. I was thinking of Malcolm in particular. Of course only if he/they have the time and interest to do so.

I think we might observe a growth in number of papers like that in the future. Academic interest of researchers (from many fields) in Tibetan Buddhism seems to increase (some examples are: Benson's research on tummo, Kolzhenikov's research on how development stage practises affect the sympathetic nervous system, Van Gordon's research on psychological effects of emptiness meditation inspired by his background in Gelug presentation of Madhyamaka, Sam Harris promoting Dzogchen).

Best regards,
Roberto
Tata1
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by Tata1 »

RobertoKhorviano wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:48 pm &
It claims that the origin story of Great Perfection - stirring in the basis, beings falling under the sway of marigpa and various technicalities related to that - are a mythical narration of trauma, dissociation (and possible recovery).

Completely lost me here
karmanyingpo
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by karmanyingpo »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:57 pm
RobertoKhorviano wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:48 pm &
It claims that the origin story of Great Perfection - stirring in the basis, beings falling under the sway of marigpa and various technicalities related to that - are a mythical narration of trauma, dissociation (and possible recovery).

Completely lost me here
I'm biased since I am an attached practitioner and have not read the article so take this with however big , a grain of salt you may ,
but this just sounds like a lot of conceptual proliferation and intellectualization, to me.
You can spin anything into anything given enough theory and analysis. Just my two cents.

Seems to miss the point of Dzogchen... Yes lineage and origins are important! Dont get me wrong.. But obsessing over history and creating new interpretations and analysises of history to better fit ones preconceived notions and belief systems, ... just seems like its missing the point entirely... We have lineage to appreciate where the practice comes from, to have gratitude and appreciation for our teachers and spiritual forebearers and not become egocentric, to gain support inspiration and blessings and to connect to the continuous line of teachers and students who have practiced and realized what is to be realized, etc. Not to turn it into an intellectual exercise of distortion and hyper analyses...

KN
Last edited by karmanyingpo on Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Western psych people have been associating Buddhist Gnosis generally with disassociation since forever. The only part that seems new here is that it's Dzogchen.

There is no concept of Gnosis in Western Pysch...I mean, Frankl and Maslow kind of get glimmers of it, but generally they just don't understand how to categorize it.

I may try to tackle it, but I'm already prejudiced that this will be the outcome of reading it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Sādhaka
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by Sādhaka »

RobertoKhorviano wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:48 pmThe author of the article cites many Dzogchen sources, adresses 17 Tantras and looks at history of Great Perfection teachings using a multidisciplinary approach combining historical studies, psychology and trauma research. It claims that the origin story of Great Perfection - stirring in the basis, beings falling under the sway of marigpa and various technicalities related to that - are a mythical narration of trauma, dissociation (and possible recovery).
:roll:

Now some intellectual is dissecting the Seventeen Tantras themselves in order to try to secularize them and fit them in the box of contemporary western psychology?

Wow, I think I’ve about seen it all now.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

The description lost me at “mythical”. As an aspirational dzogchen practitioner and a trauma therapist I can say with confidence this paper is complete, self indulgent nonsense.
Malcolm
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Re: Origins of Great Perfection, Trauma and Disocciation

Post by Malcolm »

This persons understanding of the Dzogchen tradition is very superficial and incomplete, both in terms of its history and its meaning.
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