Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

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Padmist
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Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Padmist »

In the Lotus Sutra, it said there are 3 vehicles. sravakayana, mahayana and pratyekabuddhayana. We still have the first 2 vehicles today. What happened to that 3rd vehicle? What is that? I haven't come across them in my historical reading anywhere. Are these just recluse yogis in the forest?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

They are "solitary realizers," sometimes outside the field of formal Buddhism all together. Given this definition, it is not surprising we don't hear much from those on such a solitary path.

The Khaggavisāṇa sutta is sometimes said to be a teaching of this path:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/StNp/StNp1_3.html

Disclosure: Some years ago I attempted to establish a web-based networking hub in Japan for people who saw themselves as followers of the Pratyekabuddha vehicle. My aim was to develop some kind of more formal structure for this elusive approach to the Dharma. I was exploring the possibility of establishing the "縁覚宗" (Engakushu in Japanese, the translation for "Pratyekabuddha Sect") as a formally recognized religious corporation under Japanese law, to be based in Tokyo.

Given the solitary nature of the Pratyekabuddha path and the general obscurity and paucity of information on this form of practice, it is perhaps predictable that my project was a failure.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Queequeg
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Queequeg »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:58 am They are "solitary realizers," sometimes outside the field of formal Buddhism all together. Given this definition, it is not surprising we don't hear much from those on such a solitary path.

The Khaggavisāṇa sutta is sometimes said to be a teaching of this path:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/StNp/StNp1_3.html

Disclosure: Some years ago I attempted to establish a web-based networking hub in Japan for people who saw themselves as followers of the Pratyekabuddha vehicle. My aim was to develop some kind of more formal structure for this elusive approach to the Dharma. I was exploring the possibility of establishing the "縁覚宗" (Engakushu in Japanese, the translation for "Pratyekabuddha Sect") as a formally recognized religious corporation under Japanese law, to be based in Tokyo.

Given the solitary nature of the Pratyekabuddha path and the general obscurity and paucity of information on this form of practice, it is perhaps predictable that my project was a failure.
"I'd never join a club that would have me as a member."
-The Pratyekabuddha Creed
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Queequeg »

Padmist wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:25 am Are these just recluse yogis in the forest?
They're people who attain a correct view without the Three Jewels. They are described as attaining understanding through the 12 Nidana, or in other words, by observing the world around them and spontaneously perceiving the compound nature of dharmas (which they don't necessarily call dharmas). They also do not make any effort to teach others, and simply blow out like sravaka arhats at the end of this life.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Queequeg »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:14 pm "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member."
-The Pratyekabuddha Creed
Would a Pratyekabuddha even know that they were a Pratyekabuddha? I think that's the point. Their awakening is spontaneous and solitary. They have no reference to the Three Jewels. This is why they can appear in times and places where there is no Buddhadharma at all.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Matt J
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Matt J »

This reminds me of the Russell joke:
As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd-Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician and a solipsist, her surprise surprised me.
Similarly, I am surprised you appear surprised, Padmist! :lol:
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--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Queequeg
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Queequeg »

:rolling:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Padmist
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Padmist »

So a Christian monk who just went on a contemplative mode all the time, a Jain or Advaita who just meditated their whole life, are these counted as pratyekabuddha-yanist?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Padmist wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm So a Christian monk who just went on a contemplative mode all the time, a Jain or Advaita who just meditated their whole life, are these counted as pratyekabuddha-yanist?
I would guess that deep contemplation or meditation per se is not what makes a pratyekabuddha, but rather it would hinge on what they realized through their practice.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Queequeg
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Queequeg »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:46 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm So a Christian monk who just went on a contemplative mode all the time, a Jain or Advaita who just meditated their whole life, are these counted as pratyekabuddha-yanist?
I would guess that deep contemplation or meditation per se is not what makes a pratyekabuddha, but rather it would hinge on what they realized through their practice.
Ditto. Did they come to "Right View"? That's the measure.
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:07 pm They're people who attain a correct view without the Three Jewels. They are described as attaining understanding through the 12 Nidana, or in other words, by observing the world around them and spontaneously perceiving the compound nature of dharmas (which they don't necessarily call dharmas). They also do not make any effort to teach others, and simply blow out like sravaka arhats at the end of this life.
Right View is not compatible with most interpretations of deism I know of. Maybe nominally they'd be Christian or Muslim or Hindu or whatever, but on examination, their views would probably be heretical according to their nominal creeds.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Norwegian »

Padmist wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm So a Christian monk who just went on a contemplative mode all the time, a Jain or Advaita who just meditated their whole life, are these counted as pratyekabuddha-yanist?
No.
PeterC
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by PeterC »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:10 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:14 pm "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member."
-The Pratyekabuddha Creed
Would a Pratyekabuddha even know that they were a Pratyekabuddha? I think that's the point. Their awakening is spontaneous and solitary. They have no reference to the Three Jewels. This is why they can appear in times and places where there is no Buddhadharma at all.
They achieve realization, so yes they know what they are, but the defining difference between a Pratyekhabuddha and a Samyaksambuddha is the ability to turn the wheel of Dharma. Pratyekhabuddhas can teach only by example, e.g. by demonstrating the siddhis
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

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PeterC wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:37 am They achieve realization, so yes they know what they are, but the defining difference between a Pratyekhabuddha and a Samyaksambuddha is the ability to turn the wheel of Dharma. Pratyekhabuddhas can teach only by example, e.g. by demonstrating the siddhis

Do they? I really don't know. What is their realization?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

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Queequeg wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:08 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:37 am They achieve realization, so yes they know what they are, but the defining difference between a Pratyekhabuddha and a Samyaksambuddha is the ability to turn the wheel of Dharma. Pratyekhabuddhas can teach only by example, e.g. by demonstrating the siddhis

Do they? I really don't know. What is their realization?
They realize pratityasamutpada and achieve liberation. So yes, they're the real deal. The descriptions do seem to vary a little between the theraveda and mahayana, though. They differ from arhats in that they achieve realization independently, without relying on the dispensation of a supreme Buddha; but they differ from a supreme Buddha in that they cannot create a dispensation themselves, which even Gautama hesitated to do, and had to be persuaded by Indra and Brahma to leave the forest. From this perspective the achievement of Gautama that commands our respect is not realizing dependent origination and achieving liberation, but being able to teach.

I've always quite liked them. I think force-fitting them into the nine yanas scheme didn't really do them justice.
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

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I guess my next clarifying question is do they know they are pratyekabuddhas? Or is that a term Buddhists impose on them to make them fit the Buddhist scheme? I can accept that if they encountered a buddha they would recognize the buddha's awakening but all the rest that the Buddha does, ie. the teachings particularly, would be a curiosity to them.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Sentient Light »

According to the Mahavastu of the Mahasamghika, pretyakabuddhas all collectively leave the world / enter nirvana prior to a Bodhisattva's final birth. According to these texts, they are aware. Pratyekabuddhas have past life recall, so I dont' see why they wouldn't be aware.

My personal thought is that Taoist immortals are pratyekabuddhas. "The Tao which can be taught is not the Tao." <-- seems to suggest that Tao awakening cannot be taught through any particular method or way, only demonstrated by example. It's also interesting to note that while Laozi is considered to have existed around the same time as the Buddha (if he even existed at all), there was no belief that he had actually attained Immortality until much later in the history of Taoism. And most Taoist practitioners may use of Taoist teachings, rituals, magic, medicine, etc., but even among the clergy generally aren't expecting to achieve Immortality, so much as make use of the Taoist teachings to live in better accordance with the Tao as best they can.
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

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PeterC wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:37 amThey achieve realization, so yes they know what they are, but the defining difference between a Pratyekhabuddha and a Samyaksambuddha is the ability to turn the wheel of Dharma. Pratyekhabuddhas can teach only by example, e.g. by demonstrating the siddhis

Then only Uttamanirmāṇakāya’s are Samyaksambuddha’s, or vice-versa?
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Norwegian »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:23 pm I guess my next clarifying question is do they know they are pratyekabuddhas? Or is that a term Buddhists impose on them to make them fit the Buddhist scheme? I can accept that if they encountered a buddha they would recognize the buddha's awakening but all the rest that the Buddha does, ie. the teachings particularly, would be a curiosity to them.
Their realization is higher than an Arhat, but lower than a Bodhisattva, more or less. They understand very well what is Buddhadharma, even if there is no dispensation of the teachings of a supreme nirmanakaya at that time. So, this qualification rules out the possibility of any Pratyekabuddha at this time in our period, since we are in Buddha Shakyamuni's dispensation. So there's no Pratyekabuddhas in Christianity, etc.

They will have heard the teachings of the Buddha directly in person. Then they undergo serious contemplation of those teachings, studying the twelve links of dependent origination, and then they accumulate merit for a hundred kalpas, and then they manifest as Pratyekabuddhas in a period of time where there is no dispensation of a supreme nirmanakaya.

But their language or mode of understanding is definitely Buddhadharma, and they are very much aware of that and the teachings, as is their realization (they are definitely Aryas), because in their past lives, very long time ago, they studied directly under the Buddha.
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by krodha »

In my understanding, pratyekabuddhas manifest realization based on their contact with a guru in a previous life (in some cases it has to be contact with a samyaksambuddha), and only manifest pratyekabuddhahood in a time and place when/where there is no Buddha nor extant lineage of the buddhadharma.
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Re: Where are the "pratyekabuddha-yanist"?

Post by Sādhaka »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:20 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:37 amThey achieve realization, so yes they know what they are, but the defining difference between a Pratyekhabuddha and a Samyaksambuddha is the ability to turn the wheel of Dharma. Pratyekhabuddhas can teach only by example, e.g. by demonstrating the siddhis

Then only Uttamanirmāṇakāya’s are Samyaksambuddha’s, or vice-versa?

To respond to my own question, that doesn’t seem right.

I suppose it would then be that all Uttamanirmāṇakāya’s are Samyaksambuddha’s, yet not all Samyaksambuddha’s are necessarily Uttamanirmāṇakāya’s.
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