Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

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Malcolm
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:56 am
Jayarava
Speaking of cranks...
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Zhen Li
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:33 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:56 am
Jayarava
Speaking of cranks...
Now I have read further in Walser's book, I agree with his anticipated objection that "there are just too many moving parts and too few surviving samples of handwriting to raise my conclusions anywhere near the level of “proof.”" (p. 242)

I don't think anyone will be citing his conclusions or argument any time soon. It is based on too many conditional arguments. If one of which is undermined, the whole house of cards crashes down. I think the book would have been more effective if he left the premises as is without drawing conclusions, or at least offering a variety of possibilities that one might come to.

Where the book is useful, in a way that I would say some of Jayarava's articles/blog posts are useful, is in its approach to old materials in new ways. Also, it draws together sources that one might have never considered (e.g. Pāli materials and Yajurveda materials). So, as a sort of source book or reference, it is definitely useful.

One issue I have is his use of the word "canon" and "canonical." He never really justifies this. He just continues on the assumption that Āgama-Nikāyas represent or were conceived of as a "canon" and transfers the ideology of authority this term has in western religions into the structure of his argument.
Malcolm
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:20 am
Jayarava's articles/blog posts are useful...
Well, to the extent that he does not really know Sanskrit or Pali, blathers on and on egotistically about his "findings," bombards his critics with venomous retorts, rejects rebirth and karma out of hand, and so on, I guess so.
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nyonchung
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by nyonchung »

We still have at roughly the same time a Prajñaparamitā in Gandhāra
So the question is more complex
Falk & Karashima point to a possible Eastern-Indian origin (practically at the beginning of CE)
Here Eastern = probably Anga / Kalinga
We tend to forget the Orissa/Andhra arera as a major Mahayana center - sure, not much left but ruins and no textual remains

Otherwise the link to Bronkhorst is interesting, asks good questions, but answers not always convincing
Chronology is mains problem - being quite vague

One question, why successful brahmins would care to "take over" Buddhism in Magadha?

One key point for me is that sanskrit cohabited with Greek, Persian and Gandhari for quite a while under Indo-Greek rulers
And the Manu rules where probably finalized at that time ... strange, no?
Like how do we reconstruct the adoption of sanskrit (and of brahmanism etc.) of the Dravidians areas, with Tamil having already a pretty developed literature (and possibly a written one) and the creation of a brahmanic from a segment of the dravidian population?
Did a similar process locally happened in Northern India?

There are also probably interesting clues to be taken from the jaïna tradition and the way they adopted sanskrit

- Falk H. & Karashima S. (2012)
= "A first-century Prajñaparamitā manuscript from Gandhāra", by Harry FALK and Seishi KARASHIMA, in "Annual Report of The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (ARIRIAB)" at Soka University for the Academic Year 2011, Vol 15, (2012) - pp. 19-62
- Soka University, Tokyo, 2012
http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/content/pdf/ari ... (2011).pdf

regards to all
tingdzin
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by tingdzin »

nyonchung wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:01 am One question, why successful brahmins would care to "take over" Buddhism in Magadha?
Follow the money.
nyonchung wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:01 am One key point for me is that sanskrit cohabited with Greek, Persian and Gandhari for quite a while under Indo-Greek rulers
And the Manu rules where probably finalized at that time ... strange, no?
Well, according to Bronkhurst (if I read him right), the main center of Sanskrit use had already passed from Gandhara to Aryavarta by that time, and Sanskrit at that time was a Brahmin monopoly anyway. The dating of Manu's rules is, like almost all Indian dating, controversial.
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nyonchung
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Re: Genealogies of Mahāyāna Buddhism: Emptiness, Power and the Question of Origin

Post by nyonchung »

Yes
Chronology being the problem, as always
I accept Bronkhorst endorsment of Falk: active c. 350 BCE just before the arrival of Alexander (but Greeks were already present before)
and so, I will tend to think of Mahaparinirvana as late as maybe 370 BCE ...

Otherwise I see this as a gradual shift West to East, Brahmins were present in Magadha in Buddha's time and were probably already powerful in the Kurukhshetra area
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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