Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by narhwal90 »

Removed several argumentative and off-topic posts.
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Aemilius
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Aemilius »

PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:38 am
Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:37 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:06 am
This has nothing to do with the question, which is: you asserted that there was a historical Bodhisattvayana preceding Gautama Buddha, I asked (several times) where you got this idea from. I'm still interested to hear the answer to this, whether it's scriptural authority, history of some form, or enlightened knowledge from some source.
Isn't that Dipankara?
This was Aemilius' assertion:
I have the impression that the Bodhisattvayana is older than the time of Siddhartha Gautama, i.e. it existed in India already at time of his propagation of the doctrine. It was called Bodhisattva-gana or something like that, it was not called Sangha. Gautama joined the Bodhisattva-order at some point of his career. This ofcourse is difficult to prove and this view is not found in many books.
Clearly the Buddha Dipankara would have transmitted, in some form, the Bodhisattva vows, but by the time of Gautama, his Dharma would have left the world.
Gautama met Dipankara in a previous life three, five or seven Great Kalpas ago (depending on the source). The previous Buddhas of this Kalpa are:
Vipassī
Sikhī
Vessabhū
Kakusandha
Koṇāgamana
Kasyapa

And yes, the doctrine of Buddha Kashyapa must have disappeared completely before a new Buddha (i.e. Shakyamuni) could arise. This is the official Buddhist doctrine.
I'm not sure if anybody has said it to me in anyway. But I have persistently, during the course of thirty years, seen what I have said above, and a little more: Shakyamuni got certain Mahayana teachings from a materially existing order of bodhisattvas. And also, when Shakyamuni had attained Buddhahood he had direct access (telepathically) to the teachings of thousands of Buddhas, and this is another source to the Mahayana sutras, which he then "edited" (in his mind) to suit the present situation on planet Earth and in India.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
PeterC
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by PeterC »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:57 am I'm not sure if anybody has said it to me in anyway. But I have persistently, during the course of thirty years, seen what I have said above, and a little more: Shakyamuni got certain Mahayana teachings from a materially existing order of bodhisattvas. And also, when Shakyamuni had attained Buddhahood he had direct access (telepathically) to the teachings of thousands of Buddhas, and this is another source to the Mahayana sutras, which he then "edited" (in his mind) to suit the present situation on planet Earth and in India.
OK, I'll repeat the question yet again.

What is your source for the claim of a materially existing order of Bodhisattvas?
Malcolm
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:57 amBut I have persistently, during the course of thirty years, seen what I have said above, and a little more: Shakyamuni got certain Mahayana teachings from a materially existing order of bodhisattvas.
Source for this claim? This is after all the academic forum, and you’ve offered nothing to support this claim.
And also, when Shakyamuni had attained Buddhahood he had direct access (telepathically) to the teachings of thousands of Buddhas, and this is another source to the Mahayana sutras, which he then "edited" (in his mind) to suit the present situation on planet Earth and in India.
Speculative.
tingdzin
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by tingdzin »

There is little more that needs to be said about Aemilius's claims until he or she gets more concrete about evidence, except maybe to quote Pope:

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pieran spring.
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."
Padmist
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Padmist »

Aemillius, please stop. My stomach is hurting. No comedy in this thread please. Just serious academic sources.

:rolling:
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Aemilius
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:00 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:57 amBut I have persistently, during the course of thirty years, seen what I have said above, and a little more: Shakyamuni got certain Mahayana teachings from a materially existing order of bodhisattvas.
Source for this claim? This is after all the academic forum, and you’ve offered nothing to support this claim.
And also, when Shakyamuni had attained Buddhahood he had direct access (telepathically) to the teachings of thousands of Buddhas, and this is another source to the Mahayana sutras, which he then "edited" (in his mind) to suit the present situation on planet Earth and in India.
Speculative.
The main source is the promise of Buddhism that everyone can see its truth for himself or herself, that every one can develop the dhyanas, can develop the siddhis etc.. In the suttas it is promised that you can even fly in space with the help of the dhyanas, "touching the sun and moon, which are so powerful and mighty". After all this is a Buddhist forum, which presumably accepts the Buddhist sources of knowledge, which are not the same as the academic value system.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Padmist
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Padmist »

But it's exactly that. ACADEMIC. Hence the sources are academic which aren't Buddhists. Some can be but most of them are not.
tingdzin
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by tingdzin »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:18 am The main source is the promise of Buddhism that everyone can see its truth for himself or herself, that every one can develop the dhyanas, can develop the siddhis etc..
Yeah, but the point (which you seem to be determined not to grasp) is that one's own perceptions of the timeless truths of Buddhism, whether valid or not (and why should yours be more valid than anyone else's?), do not extend into the objective shared world. To think otherwise is just messianistic.
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Queequeg »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:58 pm the objective shared world.
What is that? I suppose this being the Academic forum, we could assume that to refer to the Academy with its unique rules.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
tingdzin
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by tingdzin »

My point is precisely that the academic viewpoint is dependent on certain agreed-on objective standards not to be superseded by individual revelations.
If these (or similar, they are not "unique") ground rules are not agreed on, there is little possibility of a discussion that does not devolve into mere personal opinion. If you want that kind of discussion, go to the Lounge.
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Heruka85 »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:19 pm My point is precisely that the academic viewpoint is dependent on certain agreed-on objective standards not to be superseded by individual revelations.
If these (or similar, they are not "unique") ground rules are not agreed on, there is little possibility of a discussion that does not devolve into mere personal opinion. If you want that kind of discussion, go to the Lounge.
The important caveat to keep in mind is that many academics in Buddhist Studies A. Don't necessarily know that much about Buddhist doctrine and practice and B. Often don't really care much about Buddhist doctrine and practice. I say this as a grad student in a well-respected Buddhist studies program. Studying Buddhism in a Western academic setting has really just given me a good understanding of the way modern Westerners view the world and study it but has only tangentially increased my knowledge of Buddhist doctrine and practice.

If you really want to develop functional knowledge of a particular Buddhist tradition go study with the masters of that tradition and ignore academia. If you want to study generally unimportant but sometimes very interesting minutiae then academia is the place for you.

Of course it is also extremely problematic to set up Western academia as an objective arbiter of truth in contrast with a subjective and thus less truthful indigenous scholarly tradition. With all that said I am not posting this to attempt to bolster certain claims in this thread which would even be dubious from a traditional point of view.
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Queequeg
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Queequeg »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:19 pm My point is precisely that the academic viewpoint is dependent on certain agreed-on objective standards not to be superseded by individual revelations.
If these (or similar, they are not "unique") ground rules are not agreed on, there is little possibility of a discussion that does not devolve into mere personal opinion. If you want that kind of discussion, go to the Lounge.
Fair enough. I'm not comfortable with equating Academic standards with "the objective shared world". I'm nitpicking on terminology.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
PeterC
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by PeterC »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:18 am The main source is the promise of Buddhism that everyone can see its truth for himself or herself, that every one can develop the dhyanas, can develop the siddhis etc.. In the suttas it is promised that you can even fly in space with the help of the dhyanas, "touching the sun and moon, which are so powerful and mighty". After all this is a Buddhist forum, which presumably accepts the Buddhist sources of knowledge, which are not the same as the academic value system.
Ok, I give up. You have not presented any form of academic source, scriptural source or authority for your assertion, just more rambling pontification.
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Aemilius
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Aemilius »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:58 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:18 am The main source is the promise of Buddhism that everyone can see its truth for himself or herself, that every one can develop the dhyanas, can develop the siddhis etc..
Yeah, but the point (which you seem to be determined not to grasp) is that one's own perceptions of the timeless truths of Buddhism, whether valid or not (and why should yours be more valid than anyone else's?), do not extend into the objective shared world. To think otherwise is just messianistic.
I agree. But that is the nature of the present cultural situation and the situation within Buddhism. Buddhism indeed puts you into a messianic position, if you decide to trust your own spiritual experiences and what they tell you. It is not only messianic, it also accords with what the Buddha has promised to all his followers who put his teachings into practice.

Because of this dilemma of one's own spiritual experience and what to do with it, I value highly the Buddha At the Gas Pump interviews -website. That guy, I forget his name, but he dares to approach this subject of ordinary awakening beings and their spiritual careers and spiritual experiences. They indeed exist, and have a vast significance. They are an objective and shared reality, otherwise Dharma and Sangha would have never come into being.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
tingdzin
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by tingdzin »

Really, this is not a dilemma, but your last response brings us to a new topic which should perhaps begin a new thread in a different section. (moderators?).

Of course ordinary Buddhist practitioners can have extraordinary experiences, and naturally some of these experiences can seem to relate to things described in Buddhist scriptures. However, having such experiences does NOT put one into the messianic position of insisting that one's own experiences and perceptions, which may or may not have their source in things like the Five Eyes, are valid for everyone. I'm sure you have heard the story of the Buddha's refusal to share his experiences until he was urged to. Most Zen teachers, and Tibetan teachers in the practice lineages, tell their students not to share extraordinary experiences with others, as there are many many pitfalls involved in doing so, which cannot really be gone into here, but again might be discussed in a different thread.

Most especially, believing that self-validated spiritual experience entitles one to pronounce upon historical questions in a thread within a forum dedicated (rightly or wrongly) to things that can be surmised by looking at "objective" data that is not derived from individual experience displays at least rudeness, at perhaps even a spiritually unhealthy arrogance.

I haven't read Buddha at the gas pump.

You might start a thread outside this section if you want to discuss this further.
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Re: Books on Early Mahayana Development, History and Sutras

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:15 pm
I agree. But that is the nature of the present cultural situation and the situation within Buddhism. Buddhism indeed puts you into a messianic position, if you decide to trust your own spiritual experiences and what they tell you. It is not only messianic, it also accords with what the Buddha has promised to all his followers who put his teachings into practice.
And sometimes is happens that Māra appears to you in the guise of the Buddha, or a bodhisattva, or a ḍākinī and declares, "This will be your name, this will be the place where you attain buddhahood, this will be your retinue" etc. The deceptions of Māra are many, genuine experiences on the path is rare. Especially in the West, but also among Chinese people, there are many people deluded by Māra, who do not rely on qualified teachers, and carry others along in their deluded vision.
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