Why do monks reside in temples

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neander
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by neander »

Buddhist Monks and Monasteries of India : Their History and Their Contribution to Indian Culture / by Sukumar Dutt

"the milieu in which it was founded was the ancient community of India's wandering almsmen. It was this milieu that shaped settled its ethos and basic character, the foundation upon which its own system of Vinaya was afterward built. But we shall see how the Sangha separated itself from the parent community by its own modification of a general custom Vassavasa (rain retreat)...

"Between the time when the Sangha came into existence as a unitary body of disciples and the Buddha's last missionary tour, the Bikkhu sangha must have grown in strength and cohesion yet the Founder refused to limit it to sectarian bondage by a system of rules.."
neander
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by neander »

I believe what Nichiren said:

“ I have gone to many centers of the religion,” he says in reminiscence, “ during those twenty years, in the quest of Buddhist truths.The final conclusion I arrived at was that the truth of Buddhism must be one in essence. Many people lose themselves in the labyrinth of learning and studies, through thinking that every one of the diverse branches might help to the attainment of Buddhist ideals.”

and it looks strange to me that Buddha's teaching became an elite system dedicated to secluded Arahts who need to spend years meditating and discussing complicated philosophical systems all supported by a dedicated community of laymen

but of course this my take on Nichiren 's stream
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Ayu
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by Ayu »

Due to the suggestion quoted below this topic moved to the subforum Academic Discussion in order to have an evidence based discussion of this controversial topic.
Please everybody, beware the guidelines of this subforum.

PeterC wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:20 am Suggest that mods move this thread to academic discussion, since it is largely about the speculations of a small number of western buddhologists, and the rules of that sub-forum require citations and evidence.

I still remain confused as to why someone practicing self-customized SG wants to tell the rest of us how we should practice based on that. But whatever.
neander
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by neander »

I apologize for the mistake. I agree this should have been moved to Academic Discussion.
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Aemilius
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by Aemilius »

neander wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:22 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:32 am According of the sutras there are various types of places where Buddha stayed. The most important kind are those monasteries which were given for his (or the Sangha's) use. Also, sometimes he was invited to stay in someone's garden or house, or he just stayed in the wilderness (a forest without owner). All these places are located in the Gangetic Plain (located in Northern India and Southern Nepal).
Aemilius we cleared already this.

Buddha indeed stayed in various private and public places as he was a very charismatic figure but this does not mean he established any fixed headquarters.

He traveled to various towns therefore is normal he dwelled in various palaces or private estates.

But he conceived the sangha as a community of wanderers: “….take to the road; travel for the good of the many; travel for the happiness of the many…”…… "let not two of you go the same way" (Vin I 21)

We know he received grants from rich people, I quote the same prof Powers The first land grant was made by King Bimbisara a few weeks after the Buddha’s awakening, Anathapindika, a wealthy banker from savatthi, who bought a park for the order and commissioned the building of dwelling places for Buddhist Monastics, another monastery was financed by visakha migara-mata. It is described as a seven-story building; that took years to complete.

I think I provided enough scholarly evidence to think that a part of modern Buddhology (a very small part indeed) is reconsidering the early Buddhism way of life and the way the original sangha was conceived by Buddha, it is still not the mainstream for sure but is the one I strongly believe therefore I publish this post for everybody's perusal.

I think is of paramount importance for people who are interested in early Buddhism, because as soon as the sangha switched to a cenobitical system it lost its independence and departed from the main tenet of Buddhism that is the Middle Way, if you read The Monastic code Pāṭimokkha you easily realize that is an extreme way of living.
I disagree for several grounds:
We should understand that the Sangha went through various stages of development during the lifetime Buddha Gautama; Sangha did not remain the same, people grow old and they mature. They don't do same things when they are young, middle aged or mature persons in Sangha. This is true even when you are an Arya or person on the path, or Buddha himself.

Buddha teaches cenobitical principles for the life in Sangha very clearly not only in Vinaya, but also in some Sutras like the Upaddha sutta, where we find:
"Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eight-fold path."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

You always see the world outside according to your own life, according to what you are and how you live. You cannot understand what a spiritual community is, if you have never lived in such a situation yourself, if you see it only from the outside, if you see it like a strange community of penguins on a distant continent.

Academic people also make up a community, they do not exist without it, even for a millisecond. Their basic attitude toward the Sangha is formed on the basis of their participation in the academic community.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
neander
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by neander »

I read the Sutra but cannot find any establishment of a cenobitical community, all the scholars agree that during the Vassavasa (rain retreat) the sangha was united for as long as 3 months in order to discuss various issues and plan the future, no one questions this.

Many Buddhist have a negative attitude towards the scholars because they are somehow detached from the subject.

Myself on the contrary I really thank them (I am a little bit wary about Lamotte as he was always a catholic priest before being a buddhologist so I cannot trust his independence) as they dedicate all their life (in a field with little money by the way) to try to understand a very difficult piece of information having to juggle among different languages traditions and culture and the filter for the Buddhist community what they think is useful to further explore and try to live from what was completely made up , their work has limitation but is still fundamental for me..but to each its own...
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Aemilius
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by Aemilius »

neander wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:55 am I read the Sutra but cannot find any establishment of a cenobitical community, all the scholars agree that during the Vassavasa (rain retreat) the sangha was united for as long as 3 months in order to discuss various issues and plan the future, no one questions this.
How many sutras or suttas have you read? There are many sutras where the Buddha is invited to a meal together with a large company of monks. There are also sutras where he travels with a company of monks. Sometimes he comes with Ananda to visit some monks living in a certain place. Often people seem to know where he is staying and they come to pay their respects and ask him for instruction in the Dharma.

One example: "When the Blessed One had stayed at Nalanda as long as he pleased, he addressed the Venerable Ananda thus:
"Come, Ananda, let us go to Pataligama."
"So be it, Lord."
And the Blessed One took up his abode at Pataligama together with a large community of bhikkhus."

There is a sutra where Buddha discusses with Mara, and he promises to Mara that he will not leave the world before he has trained his disciples properly.
And there is sutra where he describes the gradual training that is given to all of the bhikkhus, by himself or by his senior disciples. The sutra about the gradual training is called Discourse to Ganaka-Moggallana (Majjhima Nikaya 107) https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 1.html#ch2

Etc..
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Why do monks reside in temples

Post by Malcolm »

neander wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:55 am
Many Buddhist have a negative attitude towards the scholars because they are somehow detached from the subject.
Most Buddhists could care less what Schopen and co. think. The project of the latter is completely disconnected from the Dharma, since their modus operandi is strictly forensic.
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