Diamond Sutra Authorship (TNH Heart and Diamond Sutra)

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Norden
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Diamond Sutra Authorship (TNH Heart and Diamond Sutra)

Post by Norden »


Moderator note: it is best to start new topics rather than posting on old threads. - Hazel.

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:40 am I have been interested in studying the Heart and Diamond Sutra and wondered how TNH translations and commentaries are? His book "the diamond that cuts through illusion" and "the heart of understanding" seem to be popular, although I wanted some other opinions on if this is a good place to start. I have always enjoyed TNH style, which is another reason I was interested in starting with these. If anyone has a different suggestion please let me know.
Hi,

I'm interested to know who wrote the diamond sutra or vajracheddika prajna paramita sutta? I think you know better than me therefore I asked this question.
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Hazel
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Re: Diamond Sutra Authorship (TNH Heart and Diamond Sutra)

Post by Hazel »

Keep in mind we are on Mahayana Buddhist forum so the canned answer is that they are words spoken by the Buddha that were passed on through oral tradition until being written down. Academic discussion that questions authenticity is general suited elsewhere.


Remember we are in the academic discussion subforum, so please discuss with academic rigour.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Diamond Sutra Authorship (TNH Heart and Diamond Sutra)

Post by Zhen Li »

Norden wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:16 pm Hi,

I'm interested to know who wrote the diamond sutra or vajracheddika prajna paramita sutta? I think you know better than me therefore I asked this question.
Well of course we would say that they were "spoken" by the Buddha, but the Buddha did not "write" them with a pen or carve the letters into palm leaves. Prior to being written they were memorised by monks and bodhisattvas, but there are some theories that written drafts or summaries could have accompanied oral traditions—the primary and most important aspect in Buddhist transmission, however, is generally held to be memorisation, so even when there are manuscripts, they seem to be more objects of worship than of study. Nāgārjuna apparently retrieved manuscripts which had been hidden or stored in other realms, and finding hidden treasure texts is something which became important in the Tibetan tradition. Revelation by bodhisattvas is also something which is said to have occured.

As for the actual question of who wrote these, it is hard to know about the early period, because we need ritual manuals to know about who is permitted to "write down" sūtras. In India and Nepal there were scribe classes who were permitted to do this task with the blessings of monastics. There are also instructions which specify that teachers, such as vajrācāryas, are responsible for this task. It invovles the empowerment of the body of the scribe, as well as the materials used—we can find this information in the Kriyāsaṅgrahapañjikā.

As for specific sūtras, sometimes scribes are mentioned in colophons, but I don't think we can know the earliest scribes' names.
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Re: Diamond Sutra Authorship (TNH Heart and Diamond Sutra)

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The truth is that nobody in the academy claims to be able to answer your question. There are not enough historical sources to be able to answer it.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Heart Sutra Authorship

Post by Leo Rivers »

There is Jan Nattier's theory of author ship.
Jan Nattier' heart sutra pdf https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Heart-Sut ... attier.pdf

Dan Lusthaus critiques it here:
http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2015/04/ch ... s-and.html


see also
Issues Surrounding the Prajñāpāramitā-hṛdaya: Doubts Concerning Jan Nattier’s Theory of a Composition by Xuanzang
https://www.academia.edu/34979344/Issue ... y_Xuanzang


The conclusion is worth quoting:
Conclusion

On the point about the dating of versions of the Heart Sutra referred to in Woncheuk's commentary we need first to address the issue of "older texts". Crucially, Lusthaus says earlier in his article,

"We have no dates of other background information on when or where the two commentaries were written... We don't know for certain even if these commentaries were written before or after [Xuanzang's] death, though my sense is that they were written after." (2003: 66: emphasis added)

The conjecture by Lusthaus that the commentaries he is discussing were written (i.e. composed) after the death of Xuánzàng is important in assessing his claim that the alternate readings found in them amount to a text from a much earlier period, particularly contemporary with Kumārajīva in the early fifth century.

We've seen that when Woncheuk mentioned old texts" (舊本) he was in fact directly referring to a number of other sutras in which Avalokiteśvara plays a prominent role. So Lusthaus's conclusion that it would be "natural" in this context to conclude that this referred to the Heart Sutra looks wrong. We've also seen that his attempt to connect Woncheuk's text with Kumārajīva fails. Lusthaus's challenge to Nattier's theory falls well short of its mark.

What we're left with is evidence of multiple versions of the Heart Sutra, probably around the time of, or not long after, the death of Xuánzàng. No texts with the readings evinced by Woncheuk, in either Chinese or Sanskrit are extant. Thus there is no good case for pushing back the date of composition of the Heart Sutra before Xuánzàng. On the other hand, the evidence for multiple versions at this time is intrinsically interesting in terms of the history of the text. And in drawing attention to these early commentaries. Lusthaus has made an valuable contribution.

Nattier's thesis on the origins of the Heart Sutra certainly has stronger and weaker points. However, it is beyond reasonable doubt that the Heart Sutra per se began life in China as a compilation of extracts from Kumārajīva's《摩訶般若波羅蜜經》(T233) or possible the commentary on it 《大智度論》and probably other texts including the Mahāmegha Sūtra (possible source of the dhāraṇī). And her arguments about the attribution and dates of T250 and T251 largely stand. Neither seem to be the product of authors to which they were attributed in the 8th Century.

~~oOo~~


Bibliography

Conze, Edward. (1978). The Prajñāpāramitā Literature. Tokyo, The Reiyukai.

Hyun Choo, B. (2006) 'An English Translation of the Banya paramilda simgyeong chan: Wonch'uk's Commentary on the Heart Sūtra (Prajñāpāramitā-hṛdaya-sūtra)' International Journal of Buddhist Thought & Culture. February 2006, Vol.6, pp.121-205.

Lusthaus, Dan. (2003) 'The Heart Sūtra in Chinese Yogācāra: Some Comparative Comments on the Heart Sūtra Commentaries of Wŏnch’ŭk and K’uei-chi.' International Journal of Buddhist Thought & Culture. September, Vol. 3: 59-103.

Nattier, Jan (1992). 'The Heart Sūtra: a Chinese apocryphal text?' Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies. 15 (2) 153-223. Online: http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ojs/ ... /8800/2707

Shih, Heng-Ching & Lusthaus, Dan. (2006) A Comprehensive Commentary on the Heart Sutra (Prajnaparamita-hyrdaya-sutra). Numata Center for Buddhist Translation & Research.

Tanahashi, Kazuaki. (2014) The Heart Sutra: A Comprehensive Guide to the Classic of Mahayana Buddhism. Shambhala.
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