Beginner in Mahamudra

Malcolm
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:28 pm

I think it's tremendously silly that someone is asking about a book which involves Shamatha/Vipaysana and people are talking as if it's a restricted sadhana or something, even with the distinction in the material of "Mahamudra vipaysana" etc.
Śamatha and vipaśyāna practiced according to the Mahāmudra tradition is qualitatively different than sūtra śamatha and vipaśyāna. The former depends on introduction and the latter does not.
This book is not sutra mm, it's just sutra. Commentary on the Bhavanakramas.
The OP wanted to know about mahāmudra.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

JD, I agree- he explicitly addresses this stuff in his books, which are all transcribed, translated public talks. [So a tremendous amount of overlap w all his other books; he'll lead w 4 thoughts, refuge, and bodhicitta. Then shamatha w, and possibly w/o, object; then a standard, "shedra cliff's notes" -style analytical meditation. In an mm book, he might substitute stillness-movement-awareness instructions or something.] About half the book will be Q&A sections with all kinds of advice that can be really helpful. He just encourages people to practice the skillful teachings they come across to the best of their ability, wherever they are.
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Malcolm
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:48 pm Hell, I've seen *you* casually recommend some instructions of the type in the book in posts on DW, knowing nothing of the posters background.
We do know something of the OP's background: beginner. A He wanted to know about these two books. One has nothing to do with mahāmudra.

When I recommend a book about something that requires transmission, I always emphasize this.

Finally, you don't know what I know and what I don't know about the people with whom I interact here.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:48 pm Hell, I've seen *you* casually recommend some instructions of the type in the book in posts on DW, knowing nothing of the posters background.
We do know something of the OP's background: beginner. A He wanted to know about these two books. One has nothing to do with mahāmudra.

When I recommend a book about something that requires transmission, I always emphasize this.

Finally, you don't know what I know and what I don't know about the people with whom I interact here.
In this case it was pretty obvious you did not know the person, but that's fine, no need to defend. Indeed, I don't technically know.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:12 pm JD, I agree- he explicitly addresses this stuff in his books, which are all transcribed, translated public talks. [So a tremendous amount of overlap w all his other books; he'll lead w 4 thoughts, refuge, and bodhicitta. Then shamatha w, and possibly w/o, object; then a standard, "shedra cliff's notes" -style analytical meditation. In an mm book, he might substitute stillness-movement-awareness instructions or something.] About half the book will be Q&A sections with all kinds of advice that can be really helpful. He just encourages people to practice the skillful teachings they come across to the best of their ability, wherever they are.
I hear ya.

Every book I can recall I've read by Thrangu Rinpoche on meditation, including those which -are- on Mahamudra (such as Essentials of Mahamudra) he states that his reasons for making such material available is precisely that they are "Safe" instructions which can be undertaken by anyone. While it might not be a direct statement that the book is "unrestricted", it's about as close as you can get. I trust him to say if there is something with a pre requisite.

Personally will go with what the author/teacher states is definitive in terms of their own work.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:28 pm Imma go ahead and dispute this a little,
Sure, please do
... the more zealous of the DW preacher set.
...ridiculous.
...It seems bizarre to me to discourage someone from buying such a book.
You're also not in a position to put words in teacher's mouths
I think it's tremendously silly...the parochial attitude is really just too much, it's almost comical lately, not everyone who asks about a book is some child that needs a reprimand.
Ok. I think you did dispute that a little. And you’re forcing me to repeat myself. OP asked about mahamudra. Kagyu mahamudra depends on certain instructions from the guru. You want to practice that, the best thing to do is first to get those instructions.

Of course OP can read a library of dharma texts if he/she wants to. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

As they say, it is what it is.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Zolbec »

Hey, guys. I'm actually more interested in Shamatha. At the moment, I am practicing the second 'level' (Internal object = Watching Thoughts). I want to move to the third 'level' (no object). That's why I'm interested in these two books. But then I wondered if that would require a teacher, or I could learn from a book. What is your opinion?
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Zolbec wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:19 am Hey, guys. I'm actually more interested in Shamatha. At the moment, I am practicing the second 'level' (Internal object = Watching Thoughts). I want to move to the third 'level' (no object). That's why I'm interested in these two books. But then I wondered if that would require a teacher, or I could learn from a book. What is your opinion?
If I were in your shoes, then I would make contact with someone, but not stop practicing. I mean you don't have to find "the one", just go find someone that's going in depth with Shamatha/Vipaysana, either on line or in person, establish basic contact, listen. Having a teacher to instruct you and to ask questions of is invaluable..even if it's by email, etc.

Faith in what you are doing and someone to give definitive answers really can make a difference in the results of practice. That's all just my experience though.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:33 pmPersonally will go with what the author/teacher states is definitive in terms of their own work.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Natan »

A dharma transmission starts with hearing, studying and meditation. That’s what Buddha set up. If course make money selling dharma is the fourth unwritten stage for most teachers.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Zolbec wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:19 am Hey, guys. I'm actually more interested in Shamatha. At the moment, I am practicing the second 'level' (Internal object = Watching Thoughts). I want to move to the third 'level' (no object). That's why I'm interested in these two books. But then I wondered if that would require a teacher, or I could learn from a book. What is your opinion?
One cannot effectively learn any kind of meditation practice from books.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Nyingjetsal »

Zolbec wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:19 am Hey, guys. I'm actually more interested in Shamatha. At the moment, I am practicing the second 'level' (Internal object = Watching Thoughts). I want to move to the third 'level' (no object). That's why I'm interested in these two books. But then I wondered if that would require a teacher, or I could learn from a book. What is your opinion?
Hi, if you have difficulties acessing a teacher for instructions, I would warmly recommend this online course with Mingyur Rinpoche: https://learning.tergar.org/course_libr ... urse-home/
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by tobes »

For many practitioners, reading about Mahamudra first has functioned like a prior cause to genuinely entering a tradition, receiving transmission etc. Moreover it is always auspicious to read Dharma books and try to understand them.

Thrangu Rinpoche is a sublime teacher and has published many excellent teachings on the topic. I would recommend An Ocean of Ultimate Meaning. I cannot fathom him saying to someone with a sincere interest: "Don't read this."

The late Traleg also offers some good introductions, such as Luminous Bliss.

Of course, to truly enter the path of Mahamudra, one needs (well) to go beyond books - but it does not follow from this that one ought not begin by reading to gain some basic knowledge/understanding.

Best of luck in your endeavors.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

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Seconding the recommendation above - Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche’s book Luminous Bliss (also published as Mind at Ease) is an excellent book.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I have not read Thrangu R’s book. However he is one of the preeminent teachers of the Karma Kagyu sect alive today. He understands full well the need for a teacher in learning Mahamudra. Yet he has published this book knowing full well the culture and environment in which it will be read.

I have to assume he has weighed all the variables and has decided that there will be enough benefit to the general public that reads it. You can get benefit without learning to master Mahamudra.
Thrangu Rinpoche is a sublime teacher and has published many excellent teachings on the topic. I would recommend An Ocean of Ultimate Meaning. I cannot fathom him saying to someone with a sincere interest: "Don't read this."
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by rob h »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am Do I think that if someone reads this book without first receiving the teachings, then Mahakala will appear and split their head open with a blazing khatvanga? No, probably not.
Who knows, maybe they're fortunate enough that a Dakini or some other being will give them empowerment from another plane of existence too. I mean it's not likely, but I'd guess it's not impossible. I'm sure Dakinis and some other beings are perfectly capable of it.
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am I'm just saying that it's *better* to first get instruction from a qualified teacher.
Agreed, in most cases, if they're actually wanting to wake up.

This isn't directed at anyone specific but I think there's too much "you can't" do this or that around here at times, as if it has to be 100% fact for everyone. We don't know the potential all of these people asking have or what their situation has been in past lives before they got here. I mean of course in most cases people won't be able to learn a whole lot without a teacher, but the way it's so often said to be impossible isn't right either I don't think. And some basics can definitely be learnt from books. I suppose the key is finding the right book for basics instead of trying to jump in from the off with more difficult or advanced teachings.

Maybe it's more along the lines of "Unless you're extremely fortunate, it's best to find a teacher."

Just saying.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

rob h wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:24 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am Do I think that if someone reads this book without first receiving the teachings, then Mahakala will appear and split their head open with a blazing khatvanga? No, probably not.
Who knows, maybe they're fortunate enough that a Dakini or some other being will give them empowerment from another plane of existence too. I mean it's not likely, but I'd guess it's not impossible. I'm sure Dakinis and some other beings are perfectly capable of it.
That’s a bit like advising someone to jump off a building because they might land in a swimming pool and survive. Sure, it’s possible. It’s just not very likely.

Dudjom Lingpa received teachings in that way. But I’m not going to bet that I or anyone else is equal to him, because the odds on that are not good.
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am I'm just saying that it's *better* to first get instruction from a qualified teacher.
Agreed, in most cases, if they're actually wanting to wake up.

This isn't directed at anyone specific but I think there's too much "you can't" do this or that around here at times, as if it has to be 100% fact for everyone. We don't know the potential all of these people asking have or what their situation has been in past lives before they got here. I mean of course in most cases people won't be able to learn a whole lot without a teacher, but the way it's so often said to be impossible isn't right either I don't think. And some basics can definitely be learnt from books. I suppose the key is finding the right book for basics instead of trying to jump in from the off with more difficult or advanced teachings.

Maybe it's more along the lines of "Unless you're extremely fortunate, it's best to find a teacher."

Just saying.
Actually I don’t think there’s too much “you can’t” around on this particular question. There probably isn’t enough. There is no vajrayana without the guru. Telling people that it’s ok to try to pursue vajrayana teachings without a guru is, frankly, not good advise.

Not everyone today has easy access to a qualified guru. But compared to centuries gone by? It’s far, far easier now.
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rob h
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by rob h »

Hey,

I get what you mean, maybe it just bugs me when it's stated that there's no chance at all when I don't think that's totally accurate. I'm not saying it should be recommended either. Some people are cut off due to illness/distance, etc, though and I don't agree that they should just not even try instead of having a go with some basics if they're that determined and accepting the risks. Tibetan isn't your average path though so I'm not going to go on a crusade with my argument, I respect that many of you on here are wiser than I am and just looking out for others at the same time. More of me just nitpicking (which I have a habit of) with the posts that make out that it's impossible to get some guidance from books on some level.

Was looking through some of Essentials of Mahamudra by Thrangu Rinpoche earlier too and it's very clear in recommending a teacher and that the path can be dangerous if not done properly. It also has fairly detailed sections on errors that people can fall into as well which I think is one of the most important parts of the book.

I'd never heard of Dudjom Lingpa either until I just checked his wiki page after seeing you mentioned him, so thanks for that too. First I've read of any Tibetan actually doing it that way. :mrgreen:
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Simon E. »

Its not simply that attempting Mahamudra can be dangerous, although that is the case.
Its that attempting to practice Mahamudra without the necessary transmission is not going to be effective.
Which is not to say that there might not be some mundane benefits.
But without pushing the analogy too far you would be attempting to use the vacuum cleaner without plugging it in.
If you doubt this contact Thrangu R's office. He has been poorly after a fall but is recovering well.
I have no doubt that he will tell you that his books are sprats for mackerels, or for those already 'working the wangs'. :smile:
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Nyingjetsal wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:45 pm
Zolbec wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:19 am Hey, guys. I'm actually more interested in Shamatha. At the moment, I am practicing the second 'level' (Internal object = Watching Thoughts). I want to move to the third 'level' (no object). That's why I'm interested in these two books. But then I wondered if that would require a teacher, or I could learn from a book. What is your opinion?
Hi, if you have difficulties acessing a teacher for instructions, I would warmly recommend this online course with Mingyur Rinpoche: https://learning.tergar.org/course_libr ... urse-home/
I just heard about this from another source. She has done (2) 3 year retreats and speaks very highly about it. In fact I started a new thread to draw attention to this website.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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